Conversation Continued....

Amazing comments, thank you. If you don't mind, I would like to continue this debate. And a warning, a child abuse incident mentioned below.

One of the hardest times I went through was during my 2nd FET. I had 11 embies to thaw. I prayed to God (this after 3 neg IVF’s), I said to him “God, only you can give life, so I am giving these 11 embies over to you, hold them in your hand and give them life”. All 11 died. I was devastated beyond belief, harder even than my mc and ectopic. Because this time I had totally given it over to God, and he chose not to give them life, or so I believed.

After that I was angry at God, so angry I actually said to him “Sorry God but you pissed me off badly, I can’t talk to you, and I am not sure when I will be able to talk to you again”. It took me about another 2 years to talk to him again.

See, I don’t believe that God answers prayers with a No. I honestly don’t. I don’t think he sits up there and says “Tertia, umm, well, I think this time I will say no. Sorry, the answer is No for you this time, but come back again next time, and I might just say yes. Ok Sally, you can have a Yes now. Why? Oh just because I feel like it, or let me rephrase that, Its Part of My Plan. This bigger plan that is bigger than you, that perhaps one day you might just understand”

I don’t believe that. I believe that God created us with free will, and having free will implies choice, and a certain amount of randomness in the world we live in. He did not give us free will conditionally. Saying ‘you can have free will, but only until I decide to intervene’. No, you can’t have it both ways. You either have free will, or you don’t. And you can’t have free will without the

I have to believe in the randomness and illogic (is that a word?) of the world, because otherwise abused children, genocide victims, women who raped are then part of a Plan. I can’t believe in a God that has a plan that includes that. My God would never have a plan that says “let this little 9 month old baby be raped and sodomised so badly she dies, its part of my plan”. Sorry to be so brutal and blunt, but I just can’t believe that can ever be part of God’s plan, ever. And these things happen. You can’t ascribe every thing to the nebulous “God’s Plan” So why do things happen? Because they just do.

It’s funny how difficult it is for people to accept that answer ‘just because’. I suppose its because our whole lives we are programmed to believe input = output. Cause = Effect. That being good = reward, that hard work = good payment, that being Godly = being blessed. The harder I push this pedal, the faster it will go. We need to make sense of our lives. We need to believe there is fairness, justice and logic.

And then, when tragedy strikes, we are lost. We have an effect here, surely there must be a cause somewhere? There can’t be any thing without a reason. There must be a reason. And because we don’t like to say (out loud) that ‘well, maybe you deserved it’ (input = output), we scramble around to look for a reason, any reason that will restore order and logic to our lives. So we use the esoteric “part of a bigger plan” reasoning. The “you’ll understand one day”. Because to most people admitting that there is no cause, there is no reason, turns their whole world belief on its head. And that is almost impossible for some people to bear. If they have a reason, an answer, even a blame to furnish, then they can go back to thinking that the world is in balance, that things happen for a reason, that good is rewarded and bad is punished.

It is difficult to live in a random world, one where there is no discernable pattern. It is frightening for many people. It was for me. If there is no logic, or fairness, then why should any one strive to be good? If being good is not rewarded, and being bad is not punished, then surely being bad is a whole lot more fun? Until you pack that away, and live your life to the best that you can, without the expectation of a reward, without control from above. It is also difficult to prepare and protect yourself in a random world. Because nothing you can do can prevent the bad things from happening, no matter how ‘good’ you are. And that is very scary for many. So all you can do is live your life in the best way you know how, doing things that feel right and make you feel good.

Because, no matter how hard you try, no matter how good you are, Shit Just Happens.

Comments

[Kim]

I go along with pretty much all of what you say. Life is chaotic, uncertain confusing and the only sense it has is that we give it and I realise how moments of sadness and tragedy leave me vulnerable and seeking to find answers. But often there are none but we like to think there are and so the question of a God often comes up.I believe there may be some higher force but it is beyond my comprehension but like you I doubt he chooses who is going to be rewarded and who is going to be punished like that.

To some extent I feel that religion was formed to make us tow the line and to give us a neat little understanding of life. Instead of accepting that life is confusing, chaotic, often doesn't make sense and that things happen at random - we have the meaning of life all neatly handed to us in a written form, whatever religion.

But then sometimes we find weaknesses in these theories too and go on to fill in the gaps ourselves usually with something that cannot be challenged i.e it must have been God's will etc. How can we prove or disprove that?

I think I have spent enough of my life feeling (unreasonably) bad, guilty, to blame etc etc and so I choose to believe, similarly to you, that there are a lot of random things going on.

Not that I don't believe that there is some power that can give me comfort if I ask for it or try to get in touch with my spiritual side. But I don't think there is any simple explanation of even that or how it works.

Anyway, could go on forever but must get back to work.

I go along with your thoughts on the subject

Kim

[Bridgette]

You have put this into perfect perspective to me. I tend to be sort of a spoiled child to God. If I don't get my way, I stop talking. I was taught that all prayers are answered, so when I don't get mine answered, I take it personally. I now agree with you that not all prayers are answered and its not because you were bad or did something that you needed punishment for. Bad things just happen. And who am I to think I should know why they happened?

[cate]

Wow. I just wanted to say, YES, I agree with it all, and this is the same thought process/spiritual growth process I went through during my IF/loss experience. I still get really irked by people who think they can control their lives and destinies, but now I can calm my irritation by looking on them as innocents. I even hope sometimes for them to keep their innocence for as long as possible (although I do sometimes wish for "cosmic smugness retribution" to smite them!).

Anyway, I found that the Buddhist tradition was a useful thing in helping me process the concept of randomness. It is a scary, lonely truth to comprehend that there is no great mother or father out there taking care of us--that the world is random and we cannot control the things most precious to us, no matter how hard we try. In some ways, coming to terms with these realities may be the hardest thing about IF, and it certainly is some serious growing up at a very young age. I think most people don't grapple with these issues until they are approaching old age and death.

I just posted because I wanted to recommend a book: "When Things Fall Apart" by Pema Chodron. She's a Euro-American Buddhist, and she writes about Buddhism from a Western perspective, which is helpful. I have seen other IVFers recommend this book, and it was really soothing to me when I was directly grappling with these issues, even more so than "When Bad Things Happen..."

One other thing I reflected on during this time: did you know that it's almost impossible to make a computer create a truly random number? You have to give it a seed number, the sweep of the hand of the clock at a given moment, a digit on a page, but it needs somewhere to start. I believe that we have created computers in our own image, and I think it's telling that they can't create randomness. I think it reflects a truly deep resistance in the human (or perhaps Western, Judeo-Christian) psyche to genuine randomness. It's a big thing to fathom. I think fathoming it, even for a second, is what the Buddhists are talking about.

Hugs.

Cate

[E.]

I have to say that more and more I find the random world idea strangely comforting. We are neither punished nor rewarded. We hold ourselves accountable and try to meet our own standards. The world does not have it in for us; neither does the world have any obligation to us. We are not here for a capital-R Reason, but we are here and we have the capacity to choose who we will be and how we will live.

I don't know if this is something that other people find reassuring, and as I write it I suspect that some people might find it just the opposite because it is so hard to give up expecting an answer to the "why??" of things. To each her own, of course... I have been religious before and found some peace in it, but I am finding even more peace now in the belief that there is no plan for me and I am owed no understanding. Randomness can be deeply painful, but it is not conscious and so can't be truly cruel. And to me the knowledge that I can trust myself to do the best I can in a world that will treat me with the fairness of pure chance is a real comfort.

Wow, this is starting to sound like weird reverse-proselytizing, which is not at all what I meant. I apologize! All I mean is that I agree with Tertia, that there is some good in "packing it all away" and living without the expectation of reward or help.

[sherry]

I'm a victim of child abuse. Sexually abused as a child, actually, and I can tell you, after years and years of therapy and counseling from many different professionals, and much love from my family and friends, this was part of my master plan. I can't deny what happened to me and I cannot play down how horrible it was/is, however, those experiences and the way I handled it into my teenage years and adulthood molded who I have become. Honestly, I wouldn't change that for all the money in the world.

So yes, as the saying goes, God works in mysterious ways. And yes, Shit Happens. Shit happens to good people.

[Mandy]

And sometimes, IT HITS THE FAN.

I used to be a master plan person. I found comfort in the thought that things happen for a reason and there was some sort of divine map...that there were certain places I was meant to go but that the WAY I would get there would influenced by luck, fate, chance, skill and my free will for better or worse. Sometimes, every now and then, something will happen and I will think...yep, that was probably supposed to happen. Other times I can't help but think who the hell knows?

One of the biggest things I think I've learned in this last year is that I don't have to know why things happen. The universe doesn't owe me an explanation. (though sometimes, sometimes I wish it did) I can instead concentrate on what I'm going to do about it, how I choose to look at it, and what I need to be ok in the end.

Tertia - thank you for posting this conversation.

[Lisa]

Tertia wonderful post.
I have always countered that people treating each other with dignity or acting "right or good" comes with far more honor if you do it with the expectation of no reward. Isn't just the want to help others or act with honor a far better motivation than some sort promise of huge Santa Claus like God rewarding you?

I am a half ass Catholic. To me if I am attending a "cult" (as others may see it) based on the works of a social revolutionary- thats okay- I think it still works without the god thing. The problem of course is that Catholicism has to bring in all the stupid shit about sex, women, etc.

I think the marginalized use religion to say okay my life sucks now- but it will be better in the next one. I think the rich or lucky use it to say okay I deserve all this goodness because I am good. I basically go to be part of a community. And sometimes my "prayer" helps me realize or confront what I am really feeling. Sometimes I even feel better.

Thanks for such thought provoking posts.

[-A]

Tertia, you are so right about free will. You either have it or you don't. Since EVERYBODY has it, awful things are bound to happen. I'm a Christian and I truly believe God understands our grief, the Bible mentions Jesus weeping. In the Old Testament God was always deeply saddened when Israel strayed from Him. God choose to give us free will, something that even caused/causes Him to grieve at times, so I think we can expect it will cause us the same at times. The flip side is that all good is also a choice, and when sombody CHOOSES to do something good it means a whole lot more than if they were forced.

[Carrie Jo]

I totally agree with the above post. That's everything I was thinking. And I consider myself a Pagan Christian, if that makes any sense.

[Kristine]

Such great insights...we are wise women, no?
A "master plan" really does set us up for frustration. I am much more at peace knowing that many, many things are out of my control. I cannot protect myself from the harmful things of this world...I can only attempt to prepare myself so that if/when they happen, I am able to weather them.

[Christina]

Like I said in my post on this subject (you can find it in the trackback section of the last post here) it's not God's will for the bad stuff to happen. The crap that is going on in this world is a direct result of the fact that Satan has been given control of things. Yes, God steps in from time to time, but if you see or hear of something that's "just wrong" it's not God's doing.

If God felt the need to say yes to every prayer that's ever been said, he wouldn't be more than a puppet. God can't say yes to everyone because quite often there are prayers that contradict each other (for example, during a war, you can bet that there are people on both sides praying for God to give them victory).

God doesn't say no just to satisfy some desire to ruin someone's day or life. He says no because somewhere along the way that bad thing can be used for some good. "And we know that all things work together for good..." (Romans 8:28)

[BabyBlues]

Another great blog and additional round of comments. This blog conversation is very applicable to me today. I blogged about it myself as to not take up space on your comment board with my angry, raging rant. . .

However, I did want to say this: Tertia, I am with you girl! You have encapsulated by disillusionment with what I was taught to believe about God. Time for me to find a new path and a new way of thinking about Him and His place in this struggle.

[Julia]

Mm hm. Yes. Well-put again.

[Lori]

Hey Tertia!

Here is my input for what it's worth. I was raised Catholic with a lot of Baptist relatives and this whole subject never made sense to me. I started looking for my own answers and here is what I came up with....to me, it explains everything.....

I now believe in reincarnation....I believe we are born many, many times....how many depends on how much your soul (you) learn with each time on Earth. I believe we chose our parents, we choose the circumstances of our birth. I believe we do this because of the things we have to learn. To be a fully enriched soul, you need to learn to be rich, to be poor, to be a musician, to be famous, to live with the worst heartache imaginable., you need to learn to be humble, how to overcome fear, how to die, how to deal with sickness and so many other things. You need to live each life and learn to deal with everything. If there is something more to learn, you will come back and be drawn to a particular family, so that you can experience whatever it is you have to learn. Sometimes you learn it right away and sometimes you have to "re-do" a particular thing because you didn't learn everything from that life.

The thought of children dying at birth or at a young age is what really makes this sit well with me. Why do children die at birth....my catholic upbringing could never give me a good answer. My own thoughts make perfect sense (even if it stull sucks!) All your little boy(s) needed to learn from this life was how to be born....and I think his soul chose you, because you needed to learn something from him. He learned and helped your soul learn something as well. His job, so to speak, was done and he moved on.

I also believe that souls that are linked by love or hate will keep meeting each other. Emmet Fox writes a great essay about all this and he really makes sense to me. Also, Unity Church, a nondenominational christian church really helped me.

To me, this explains, war and sickness and really wealthy people, really poor people etc etc. Does any of this make sense to you? I also lost a baby, at 11 weeks. And dealt with IF. It's hell on earth. My heart goes out to you. I hope my ramblings helped you. I've been following your story since TLOL. I can't wait for you to hold your baby in your arms...and go to his first day of school, see him graduate high school, go to his wedding, hold your first grandchild.....it will happen. I feel it in the very depth of my soul. Hugs and love you and your baby bean!

[Lori]

Forgot to add...I also believe once our souls learn everything we need to know we are ready to "die" completely and return to God...or if you want "heaven". I don't believe in the Devil or Satan or an evil force. I believe the negative stems from our free will and some soul's need to learn and grow. This planet was not meant to be perfect or be all good and happy all the time...This planet is our school and the perfect world we all want is what is in store for us after we learn our lessons and die our final time. Hugs again

[anne]

I stopped praying- not because I didn't believe in prayer but God already new it all. My mum used to pray for a baby- she stopped and just asked him to take the pain away- I was just so sad.
I was blessed with a pregnancy and I do thank god for my little girl every day.Maybe God knew I couldn't take it anymore.
Was I bad when my prayers weren't answered. Did he reward us when when stopped asking? No I dodn't think so- it's just too big for us to understand.

[Soper]

Have you read _Good Omens_ (Neil Gaiman/Terry Pratchett)? There's a great debate in there between Crowley (An Angel who did not so much Fall as Saunter Vaguely Downwards) and Aziraphale (an Angel) about the GREAT DIVINE INEFFABLE PLAN. Oh, it's witty. Read it, then give me a buzz with your thoughts. I'm interested in hearing them.

[anotherAnne]

Some random musings (some tie in with your previous post):

When I’m not goofing off at work reading your wonderful blog I often find myself reading the recaps of my favorite tv shows at http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com (Survivor & the Amazing Race have become my guilty pleasures in life). One of my favorite recappers, Miss Alli, has a saying that she employs whenever a reality show contestant say something along the lines of “God help me to blah, blah dee, blah” she always writes, “God is in the tub”. As in God’s in the bath and is otherwise engaged at the moment so he cant possibly take your request to win a million dollars in some silly game show. Well “God is in the tub” has become my new mantra in life, serving to remind me that my wants, needs, desires are not necessarily on God’s top 10 list of things to do, nor are they any more or less important than anyone else’s needs, wants, and desires.

I grew up Catholic (mostly just Catholic school my family didn’t go to church often) and I remember at a young age be struck by how people were always asking/praying for things, I always thought it was very selfish. I mean sure we all ask/pray for things, but it just seamed excessive at times. In all my years at Catholic schools I only had one priest who regularly thanked god for all the many blessing in our lives; the mundane day to day things like the sunny day we were having and the special things like our friends and families. He made quite an impression on me and to this day when something nice happens and I will send a little “thank you” out.

On the whole life is random issue, T you and I are on the same page, we can not/should not expect the whole doing good = getting good equation. People should be doing good in our life not with the expectation of some reward (either here or in the here after) we should be doing good because it is the only way we can make sense/bring order/rightness to the crazy world we live in.

I guess in a sense I believe in karma but only in that if you put bad out there you’ll get bad back.

And finally I was listing to a radio interview once with a woman who grew up a fundamentalist Christian and who was now an atheist. She said something along the lines of: living a good life as a good person without god/religion was actually much more difficult. Religion (or at least her religion) gives you all the rules, all the ways you are suppose to be, it gives you an equation for life. Without religion she found it much easier to be a responsible human being in that for the first time she found that she actually had to take responsibility and ownership of the things she did. Her comments always made a lot of sense to me.

[a]

Tertia, email me. I have been a victim of incest so I understand.

Love you sweetie and take care of your growing baby.