The Controversial Cut

To cut or not to cut, that is the question….

Well actually not much of a question, more an academic debate because Marko has decided that Adam will be circumcised, and I am letting him make the decision.  He is in charge on penises in our house. 

However I know that this is an issue not without an enormous amount of controversy and very strong feelings from both sides.

If I had to make the decision, I am not sure which way I would go.  I hate the thought of my tiny little baby having to go through pain, yet……I do want him to look like Dad, Grandpa etc. 

I know the current thinking around this issue.  That is not medically necessary, that ‘looking like Dad’ is for some people, not a good enough reason.  That some people consider it mutilation etc.

What are your thoughts?  I want Marko to read them too.

Remember:  Respect each other’s views, please.  And also, not too many horror stories of someone’s aunt’s cousin’s brother’s child with whom the knife slipped and the penis was cut off.  I want to know what you did, and why.

Edited to say:  Our son was born January 07, 2005.  based on all of what you’ve said, we decided not to circumcise him.

Comments

[Woodys Girl]

Well, since I (as yet) do not have a son, I can only speak to what I WOULD have done, had the situation arisen.

Like you, I would have left the decision to someone else, because I can see the merit to both sides of the argument. With our adoptions, I planned to let the birthmother make that choice. During our pregnancy, I - like you - planned to concede to Scott's decision.

I've always wondered how circumcision came about in the first place. Did some guy look down, and think... "Hmm... there seems to be some unnecessary skin here. Let me just cut that off!" Why on earth would anybody initiate a practice of arbitrarily cutting off part of someone's body?

(On a side note, I am also not keen on docking dog's ears/tails or removing cat's claws)

That being said, I understand the so-called hygenic reasons for having it done. And can also see why people feel compelled to do it, because that seems to be the "norm" in their area (i.e. not wanting their son to be an outcast in the locker room, etc.). If it weren't such a painful procedure, I'd be happy to let my son decide for himself, when he's old enough to make the choice (of course, at that point, what man would elect to undergo such surgery?!).

I'm sure whatever decision you make will be just fine, as Adam will never know any different. Hey... since your son's name represents the First Man (according to the Bible, and who SURELY was NOT circumsized), perhaps that would be reason enough to consider not having it done? To honor the namesake? ;-)

BTW, what do they DO with that extra skin, once removed? Are you supposed to put it under Adam's pillow for the Foreskin Fairy?

[Woodys Girl]

Wow... I'm blown away. Twice in a row I'm the first to comment??

LOL

[BrendaS]

No baby here.... but just a question regarding "looking like Dad or Grandpa".... exactly how many times does a boy see his Dad or Grandfather's willy?

[Jaine]

Can't, unfortunatley speak for myself, but my sister, didn't have her son/my nephew circumcised. She's very "granola" (a homeoapathy doc/Ph.D) but made me read this book on why NOT to do it when I questioned her. I wasn't 100% convinced despite worrying about my nephew. And...a new/big phenomenon in the US...getting less and less these days. I wish I could say I had experience or a tough time making that decision.
Like with everything else, it's a very personal decision and I don't think too-too hard to explain to a son as he gets older but, but, but...I think it's best left in Marko's hands. Really do.
I don't know about you, but foreskin, well, it's not as aesthetically attractive and oh shit...i know nothing. hail foreskin, hail circumsion. you do what you think is best. that's all a mom can.

[Julie C.]

My first blog comment, ever.

We didn't circumcise our little boy. I figured he could keep all his parts, and there's no medical necessity for it. There's no "looking like daddy" issue for us, since my partner is female, but even so, how often do little boys see (and care) about daddy's bits?

[Emily]

Wow, I didn't know there was a country other than the US left that routinely circ'd for non-religious reasons. Shhhh! don't tell my husband...

We did not have my son circ'd, though his father and all his older male relative are, and likely the majority of his friends will be as well. I was not willing to risk the early bonding/breastfeeding period, and there is quite a bit of documentation that circucision can interfere with those things.

I also don't see the benefit. I know that many people go on and on about cleanliness and desease, but I'm sorry, every major medical organization in the world has come out either against routine circumcision or, like the American Academy of Pediatrics, have admited that the benefits are too minor to be considered to outweigh the risks, and do not recommend either way.

It's elective surgury that is not without risks. It removes a functioning part of the body. And it is an (basically) irreversible process done without the consent of the patient. The vast majority of the world is not circumcised and even here in the US the rates are dropping quickly. It just wasn't worth it to me. Plus many people say that sex is better for both partners if the man is intact.

I told my husband that if he wanted to have it done, it had to be after breastfeeding was well established (ie after at least 3 weeks) and it had to be done by a pediatric urology surgeon. My research showed that most of the horror stories come from whatever Joe Schmoe dr. is available at the time doing a lame job. If it was going to happen to my son, it was going to be done by the best, It's not a trivial organ we are talking about here.

I also told him he had to set it all up, find the dr., make the appointments, etc. If he'd ever actually tried, I would have fought it tooth and nail, but in the end, he just never got around to doing it. And now that my son is 19 months old, he says he just can't do that to him, though he wishes we'd had it done in the beginning. I don't understand why it would be better to do it to a tiny newborn, but whatever. End result: I won.

[AJ]

We are going to go for circumcision the day after delivery.

Some background about us first. We are both Muslims, husband an American Muslim revert and I am a born Muslim. We both live in my country Malaysia. My husband was circumcised before when he was younger as a christian. I forgot how young he was. In Islam, it is not obligatory to do it but highly recommended due to hygienic and health reasons.

The common Malay practise is to wait until they grow up a bit. The boys are usually between the age of 5 to 12 (as long as before puberty). Majority of the Malay elders (not all) think that it is not good to do it when they are baby because the bit might grow back. I don't have any scientific facts to prove or disapprove this.

My husband doesn't want us to wait since he said the baby will already be in the process of healing himself of his umblical cord. Plus, he doesn't want his boy to suffer through embarassment of doing it when he is older. We may not be in this country where it is the norm to wait. It will be done the next day after delivery by the surgeon at the hospital.

[Mia C.]

My DH was insistent on it. He'll want to be like daddy, I don't want jokes in the locker room, easier to clean, etc. Plus there's this show in the US called Nip/Tuck. It's about two plastic surgeons. Anyway, one of surgeons' sons is a teenager, and his parents didn't have him circumsised. Well, his gurlfriend doesn't want to have sex w/him, because she thinks it's weird. So he asked to be circumsised, but his parents said no. So he got on the internet to do it himself, and passed out in the middle of it.
I will warn you, though. When they bring him back and show you what to do with the gauze and the penis, and you see his bloody gauzed penis, grab something BEFORE you open the nappy. I had a huge incision, and when they checked during labor, I bled a lot. But seeing that was what almost made me faint.
My own blood is fine, but his....aaack.

[karyn]

Here is my own personal story about circumcision. My husband and I had always assumed that if we had a boy we would get him circumcised because my husband is. That was pretty much our only reason.

When our first child was born and turned out to be a girl, we were relieved not to have to make a decision. When I was pregnant with our second child, I did a bit more reading about it and found out that doctors are really leaning away from circumcising anymore, barring religious reasons, etc. But I was still undecided.

Our second child was born and turned out to be a boy, so the decision had to be made. The morning after I had Scott I was looking at my chart at the end of the bed and I noticed beside where it said "circumcision" it said "n/a". I thought that was weird as we hadn't discussed our intentions with anyone. I asked my doctor when he came in and he said that none of the doctors in our small city do circumcisions anymore and that we would have to make an appointment in the larger city to get it done. He informed us that while in our generation about 80% of boys were circ'd, now it is falling to less than 50%. After a bit more discussion between my husband and myself we decided not to get Scott circumcised. It was a big hassle, expensive, and not medically necessary, so we really were only left with the "looking like Dad" part, which just wasn't a good enough reason to subject our son to an unneccessary procedure. My husband actually was the one who said "let's not". Plus, my "mother bear" instinct kicked in and I became very protective of Scott's little penis.

We are very happy with our decision. There is nothing extra to do with an uncirc'd penis so far as maintenance, he has never had any infections, and a few months ago my husband accidentally saw a documentary on circumcision that scared the bejeezus out of him, at which he then told me that he was so happy we had decided not to circ. Scott.

While we had originally decided to circ., in the end intellectually we knew that it was an unneccessary procedure that always had the potential to go wrong. It just felt wrong for us to go through with it in the end, and I am glad that we did not. If Scott decides that he wants to be circ'd when he is 20, well then, his penis is no longer my concern!

So there is my own personal opinion. I know that you will make the decision that is right for you and your family, and hopefully no one will give you any grief over it. It is no one's concern but yours and Marko's in the end (well, and Adam, of course!). Good Luck!

[Nikki]

I'm just a lurker but I follow your blog religiously and have great respect for you and what you think and feel. I have 2 sons and they are both circumsized because their father is. They are 7 and 6 now and neither have any concern about it didn't have any effects of pain or otherwise within minutes of having it done. I think its completely a personal choice and I would have complete confidence that Marko would make the best decision he could for his son. I do think that if my boys weren't circumsized they would have questions as to why they aren't like their dad. JMHO.

[sim]

Well, from a shallow point of view... natural ones are sexier and more fun :) But that's just one woman's opinion, of course.

[katie e.]

reading the first comment was funny to me ... i am a birthmom to a little boy who is now nearly 5. when he was born i refused to make a decision regarding circumcision, and left it up to his adoptive parents. my basic conflict is that i think the practice itself is horrifying and unnecessary - intellectually on par with female circumcision - i know that i, and many other women have basically "grown up on" circumcised penises and simply find them more attractive ... and i didn't want my little guy to be the freak uncircumcised boyfriend eventually.

[persephone]

I'm going to be weird and say I can't imagine why anyone would do this if not required to by their religion. That's the only reason I can make my peace with it, and I fully expect to cry through my son's circumcision anyway. Assuming I ever have a son.

I know, it's supposed to be easier to keep clean, etc. It just seems a rather extreme way to address that problem. But then again I probably need to toughen up, as I'm likely to cry every time they stick my baby's foot to take blood, too.

[Amy V]

We had it done for AJ. The NICU doc wouldn't do it. He made it extremely difficult for my ob to try to do it. So, I had our pediatrician do it. She gave him anesthesia (local) He cried for like 2 seconds as they put him in the papoose that held him in place. The he was given a bottle during the procedure. Other then when he was first restrained, he never made a sound.

My ex had to have one done at age 2 because everyone in his family had it done, and no one knew how to clean it while his mom was in the hospital when he was 2. He is 33 and still remembers how traumatic it was. Also, while I agree as a nurse there are no medical reasons for it, you would be amazed at how many people (medical personel) don't know how to properly care for the uncut. They should, and I consider it gross negligence that they don't. However, it is pretty prevelant. I have seen more than one adult man have to have it done as an emergency.

During potty training, (where I am from anyway) boys tend to see dad's bits as much as mom's. It's easier to show the concept than tell and the kids get it.

[Kim]

Tertia-

We had both boys done. I learned a lot after the first one. I had my ob give me a scrip long before the baby was born for EMLA anestetic cream. I filled it. We had it in our hospital bag. We put it on our son about 40 minutes before he was done to numb the area. You can also ask about spray anestetic. You are so persuasive- I bet you could get whatever you want.

I know someone who had to have it done as an adult male because of infection. It was extremely painful for him as an adult and he remembers it. Neither of my children seem to remember their circumcision. I also nursed each boy as soon as the procedure was done. It was very soothing for them.

Good luck deciding,

[Lisa]

Mason is not circumcised. His birthparents made the decision, his birthdad didn't want him to experience pain so early in life.
If we had been in charge (we adopted him when he was 1, after the fact) we would have made the same decision. Bert's dad wasn't circed, Bert was, he said it caused no trauma to look different from dad. Basically we felt it was unneeded surgery, and have heard that sexually it makes a difference to have foreskin.
We have had no problems, Mason is nearly 3 and everything is fine.
Since I don't have a penis, I don't feel really strongly either way, I probably would have let Bert make the decision.

[Lauren]

Does he really need his genitals to match the rest of his family? That seems like a really silly reason to me, unless you're fond of frequenting nudist colonies. How often do you plan on him seeing dad and grandpa's penii- and catching good enough looks to be asking questions? Maybe I'm a prudish American, but that strikes me as a weird rationale.

That said, I think that circumcision's entirely painful and unnecessary. It's not needed for hygeinic reasons anymore, it really hurts the babies when they're undergoing it, it removes a ton of nerve endings, and also causes a hardening of penile tissue below the head that's not meant to be hardened. Every major American medical organization is against elective circumcision, and the rates have been dropping dramatically over the past few decades. The same appears to be true worldwide, but I'm not as familiar with that literature.

Remember- once a kid is circ-ed, he's that way for life. There's no going back and fixing it. If he decides later on that he'd rather be uncut, he's screwed. If you leave him intact now, he'll be able to make an informed choice for himself later- which should be his right. It is, after all, his body and his rights to it should be respected, regardless of his age.

If I ever have a son, I won't do it for that last reason, because I honestly consider that to be the most important. Since I'm female, I've never had this experience, but if my parents had arbitrarily clipped off parts of my sexual organs for some asinine aesthetic purpose that left my eventual sexual capacity diminished, I'd be enraged. My boyfriend is certainly none too happy about it.

[Angie]

I also let Dh make the decision since we were having boys. Our twins came first and they were circumsized. We've never regretted the decision. Of course I hated the thought of my babies being in pain but it's a very temporary pain. They did cry during the procedure but were never bothered by it afterwards.
Personally Dh and I both are put off by the look of an uncircumsized penis. Just our personal preference, not trying to offend anyone.
After our twins we had our third son and he too was circumsized.
And had we not done it my boys might have wondered why Daddy's penis looked different than theirs when they saw him getting out of the shower. It was an all around good decision for our family.

[Expat]

My decision not to was easy

- only 10% of boys in my country (Australia) are circumcised, so he'd look like everyone else

-Dad isn't, (except I'm not sure what they do about pubes if they're supposed to look alike -does Dad shave his balls until the child reaches puberty?)

-just couldn't face causing pain to a baby (which was the most important thing for me)

[Jan]

We didn't have it done for our son, mostly because neither of us felt there was a compelling reason to do it, and we weren't going to have surgery performed on our tiny little infant son without a pretty good reason. If my husband had felt strongly that we should do it, I'd have probably agreed, but he didn't see any need, so we didn't.

[Expat]

I have a question, by the way (it's a little TMI).

How does a circumcised man, um, well, pleasure himself, with no foreskin?

VERY UNdetailed replies PLEASE, if anyone feels like enlightening me.

(and on looks, to be honest, circumcised ones look very angry and semi-aroused to me)

[Elizabeth]

I don't have an opinion or anything on "the cut" but I just thought I would mention to woodys girl of what they sometimes do with the skin afterwards.
I know someone who's job it is to go to the hospitals and pick up the skins that the hospitals save and she takes them to a facility where they use them for research. Just FYI. Not all the hospitals save them and "donate" them, but I know there is at least a couple around here that do.
P.S. Why isn't there a foreskin fairy?

[Andrea]

All three of my boys are circ'd, but I would not have had the last one done had it been my choice. This isn't quite the horror story of the penis being cut off, but close enough (at least in my book). Our second boy (Connor) was born at home and so had to be brought into the hospital to have the circ done. Everything appeared to be fine, except that when I got him home and went to change his first diaper after the procedure the diaper was soaked with blood. Apparently the doc had cut a blood vessel and we were told had we not brought him back into the hospital he would have bled to death overnight. I refused to sign the consent for the circ on my third (Bennett) and made my husband do it because I just couldn't bring myself to make that call.

Somebody up above mentioned problems with breast feeding after a circ and just for my circumstances it was exactly the opposite, all three boys nursed what seemed like 24 hours straight and really helped establish and bring in my milk supply.

Good luck with your decision and your births!

[Ute]

Well, I happen to know that we're expecting a girl, but even so, for what it's worth: My husband was circumcised when he was five or six, for purely medical reasons. He has no problems whatsoever and actually finds it quite convenient & hygienic. If he suggested circumcision straight away for a son - that would be fine with me.

[marisa]

let dh decide. we did not have ds circumcised so that he looks like dad. btw, dh and ds take baths/showers together and he knows his penis looks like dads but smaller.