The Controversial Cut

To cut or not to cut, that is the question….

Well actually not much of a question, more an academic debate because Marko has decided that Adam will be circumcised, and I am letting him make the decision.  He is in charge on penises in our house. 

However I know that this is an issue not without an enormous amount of controversy and very strong feelings from both sides.

If I had to make the decision, I am not sure which way I would go.  I hate the thought of my tiny little baby having to go through pain, yet……I do want him to look like Dad, Grandpa etc. 

I know the current thinking around this issue.  That is not medically necessary, that ‘looking like Dad’ is for some people, not a good enough reason.  That some people consider it mutilation etc.

What are your thoughts?  I want Marko to read them too.

Remember:  Respect each other’s views, please.  And also, not too many horror stories of someone’s aunt’s cousin’s brother’s child with whom the knife slipped and the penis was cut off.  I want to know what you did, and why.

Edited to say:  Our son was born January 07, 2005.  based on all of what you’ve said, we decided not to circumcise him.

Comments

[DMouse007]

It wasn't even an issue when my nephew was born - it just isn't done as routine here.

I take the view that it is completely unnecessary (all boys go through the trouble of developing one so it isn't an abberation) - just how often does a kid stand and stare at Daddy's knob anyway?

People look different. I don't feel (too) bad that I don't look like a supermodel, so I'm 100% sure a child will get over the fact that his little peepeepole is a tad different to someone else's.

[Sher]

My father was not circumcised (born at home on a farm in the 1930's) so if I had been a boy, I would not have been circumcised. I think my mom would have voted for it... however, like you, she would have left the decision about boy parts up to my dad.

I have two girls, so I have not had to worry about the decision.

[Robin (from TLOL)]

Coming out of lurkdom for this one...

First and absolutely most importantly - it's actually almost JANUARY! Roll on HBIJ!!

As for the circumcision debate, like Lisa I'm also Jewish and also live in Israel, so it's basically a non-decision here. Living in a society where pretty much every male baby is circumcized on the 8th day unless there is a medical reason to delay, I've seen that a few things tend to make the procedure go more smoothly. First, and this is critical, make sure that whoever is doing the circumcision has a LOT of experience. You want someone who does this every day, not once in six months. Second, I would absolutely insist on the antisthetic cream. There's also some kind of gizmo out there that makes the procedure easier and faster (holds their willy maybe?). I hid in the other room during my son's circumcision (as is customary) while my poor father had to carry out his traditional role and hold my son. Dad is V squeemish, but even he said it really wasn't bad. Half a second and it was over, and he didn't even cry. The after-care was no big deal either, just an extra cream to use for a few days, and he was little "raw" looking. He was not particularly fussy and had no unusual complications. It isn't pleasant to think of the procedure itself, but keep in mind that you generally only hear the horror stories, not all the boring "happily ever after" ones...

Oh yeah, and we didn't have any bf'ing complications either...

*slinking back into lurkdom now, but continuing to very loudly cheer you on!*

[Dianna]

First time commenter here:

We didn't circumsise our boy. My husband isn't circ'd so I really didn't see the point.

My cousin's boy had to have his foreskin removed at the age of 4 due to a lot of infections, which led his aunt to circumsise her son to hopefully avoid that situation.

I know that with the plastibel (I think that's what it is) there aren't any incisions and that it just falls off after a few days, but it still looked really sore for the poor babe.

Anyway, that's just my 2c.

[Alana]

My son is now almost 11. I DID have him circumcised. Back then,it didn't seem to have the controversy that it seems to have now. At that time I did it for 2 reasons. To be same as his dad and for better hygene. Yes he did see his dads parts because it was his Dad who taught him how to pee standing up. In the hygene dept. I just thought it would be better because I didn't want to be pulling his skin down all the time to clean him and wondered how much he'd be inclined to do it at oh, say age 9 or 10 when boys barely want to bathe at all let alone take extra care with their foreskin. My Dad was not circumcised but ended up gatting some terrrible infections that led him to have to get the job done as a teenager. He said it was pure hell. My current husband is not circumcised and said he always hated it. He hid in the stalls when he was changing and would be in a stall rather then publicly. He's alot more sensitive during sex and iit usually goes alot um..quicker. He wished he was circumcised. And just to check (because of all that mutilation stuff) I asked my son (whose almost 11 now) if he was upset with me for making the decision for him. He laughed. I asked him if he'd rather of not had it done and he said no, he liked it just as it is now thank you.

[andrea]

Personally I think it's up to the individual (and I mean the person on the end of the penis not the mother/father). Imagine if we went around cutting people's ears off just because it was the done thing!

[Emma]

Hi Tertia,
I have three sons, none circumcised. My first partner was uncircumcised, having been born in the UK where it was only done for religious reasons. t the 'look like Dad' argument makes no sense to me. My teenage boys have never undressed in froMy second partner is circumcised, because Australia used to be a country where it was done routinely, although no longer. My boys have all seen their dads' penises, but a little boy looks so different from a grown man anyway, thant of other boys at school -- that just isn't done any more, so they haven't seen it as an issue, and anyway, most here are uncut now. I guess for me the informed consent issue is uppermost -- I wouldn't have let anyone mess around with my girls' genitals either.

Best of luck with everything

[leya]

Expat: lube and a firmer grip.

I wouldn't, there is no good reason to do it and several good reasons not to, such as:

risk of complications from the surgery

impaired sexual response

several studies have indicated that babies that have been cut later suffer from some emotional problems i.e. harder to soothe, delayed bonding.

Also, I think it's mutilation and it's not my body nor my penis to cut. It's that kid's body in my opinion and thus it should be his choice not mine.

And personally I really really don't get why a kid's penis has to look like his father's, and if it doesn't will it really cause him much mental trauma to explain that his penis is different?

finally re: smell and infections, um that is usually related to hygeine issues and I think there are other ways to prevent bad hygeine less intrusive than sugery.

[cheryl b.]

One word: SMEGMA!
O.K. I lied, I've got more words then that. Xavier was and we've never regretted it. For us the pros and cons were almost even (pro was ahead a bit because of afore mentioned dick-cheese) but in the end it was mostly to look like Mark. We take showers toghether and are naked a lot, plus there's the whole potty training issue. We watched it be done and he cried more when they took off his pants then the actuall procedure. And besides, even Adam does get mad about it later you can say it was Marko's choice, hahahaha. (hi marko!)
I would like to say how great everyone in this community is that we can all voice our v different views without any catfights.

[Mare_Imbrium]

I am delurking to make this post. I have had the urge several times. I didn't think anything would bring me out of the woodwork.

I realize that you probably won't read this far, but I had to throw my opinion in because though once I didn't care, I have become firmly upon the side of non-circumcision. Long before I was even pregnant, I had a conversation with a friend of mine who was uncircumcised and he gave me some links talking about why a lot of people don't like the idea (and for the life of me, I can't remember what they are, sorry). I had never realized anyone cared either way. In one of these links one man detailed how he actually grew it back (well, extra skin anyway. The foreskin has a lot of nerve endings you just can't grow back). He felt like he'd had something stolen from him. Even though I think he was a little crazy, I didn't ever want my son to regret something so permanent done to him at such a young age. I figured if it meant that much to him, he could get it done later, but he couldn't get it back if I decided for him now.

My husband (as well as every guy I've ever been with) is circumcised, but we weren't terribly concerned about him looking like daddy, even though we now realize that during the young years there are probably going to be quite a few times when my son will be able to notice he looks different and may ask. We figure we have at LEAST another year before we have to come up with an answer to that one (he's 18 months old). :) Oh, and my husband, thankfully, didn't care really either way.

I was practically attacked at work when I told them I wouldn't circumcise. They swore I was dooming my boy to a lifetime of no sex, because women don't like it and heaven FORBID any mention of oral, because apparently uncircumcised men are "dirty." This actually worried me and caused me to go so far as to speak to my family about sex - ugh - because my father and all my brothers are "natural" (something I wasn't aware of until I was pregnant). They all said to me that it had never been a problem with them, ever, which, grossed out as I was, was a relief.

I was trying to keep this short, so let me summarize why else I decided not to:
- It is not medically necessary, and generally I don't like the idea of surgery unless you reeeally reeeeally have to.
- I am not religious
- My husband has problems with losing sensitivity. Who knows if being circumcised has something to do with it? A lot of people think that sex is better for a man if he hasn't been circumcised.
- My brothers are, honestly, the most digusting, dirty people on the planet, and if they have all managed to keep themselves clean for 19, 21 and 23 years, respectively, without ever getting an infection or any other problem that would cause them to have to get circumcised later (another boogeyman my coworkers threw out at me) then ANYBODY can do it.
- Considering how the rate of circumcision is dropping in the U.S. (I have no idea what it is in SA) odds are good that girls my son's age will be more accustomed to men of both...varieties and won't have any kind of aversion to uncircumcised men like my coworkers seemed to.

Good luck. I'm about a zillion miles away and I don't know you from Adam (haha) but I think about you and the babies all the time. Oh, and living as I do in the suburban metropolis that is Southern California, that picture of the ibex out your front door blew my mind. I told my husband "my goodness! It's like she lives inside the San Diego Wild Animal Park!"

[Toni]

I'm Jewish. Enough said. But if I wasn't Jewish, I would probably do it anyways...think about it this way...

If your child ever decides that HE wants it - it's MUCH MORE painful later on. See description on show Nip/Tuck. Not sure if I'd want my son going through that...if I ever had one.

[blackbird]

Wow, lotta comments on this one. Tertia, you have read my blog? I live in the house of weenies. Four of them! All I can say is...
cut cut cut cut. With a caveat. In my country, the ob/gyn does it, not the ped. My first guy looked pretty good and didn't have too much trouble(now that he's 19 I think he's pretty happy -- and yeah I think he knows he looks like his mates)Middle's I didn't like so much...no serious pain or anything, but not as neat looking as I would have liked. When Youngest rolled around, er - as it were, I started asking around in the hospital. I explained to the nursery nurses that I didn't want just whoever was on duty to do it. After a few hours of me walking around discussing my one day old boys penis and how I wanted it to look, one nurse said: Oh. You want
THE YANKEE CLIPPER -- she pointed out a rakish looking guy across the nursery. She told me he did gorgeous work, and I couldn't help wishing he'd delivered the baby. Turns out she was right. Nice job. So. Perhaps ask around. At this point your babies appear to be healthy and perhaps(fingers crossed) the only thing you will be worried about is Adam's willy.
I know, I know, I should have had all kinds of religious/moral issues to discuss here...but I think you know by now that discussing important things is not my cup o'tea. I am much too flippant. In fact, I thought "the controversial cut" referred to your hair. Yes, I think you should cut bangs(fringe?) as in your bio picture -- they would look lovely.

[Day]

My first hubby was uncircumcised. It was truly no big deal for me; he kept things very clean and once I got over the initial "oh my what's this?" It was a non-issue.
But for him, socially, he suffered a bit. His friends made constant remarks about it- he was definitely a curiosity and at times it wore him down. He considerered getting cut as an adult but the thought of the pain kept him away.

A coworker recently had his willy cut to shut his fiance up (scary how I know that, but he's a Brit and very matter-of-fact).

I don't think Adam will remember the pain nor will he miss his little "hoodie." As an adult though, he might regret it being there.
I say CUT!

[Linda]

I was very unsure about circumcision and my husband was very pro-circumcision. He wanted any son to "be like him." I asked him how often he would be comparing penises with his boy. He couldn't really answer.

I don't know what the stats are in SA, but in the US it's almost 50/50 cut vs noncut.

In the end, we didn't have to make the decision and I still don't know what we would have done.

[Christine K]

We circ'd my son. As a pediatrician, I always pointed out to people that it's medically unnecessary and totally a personal choice (unless there are religious reasons of course). However, as a medical student, during my surgery rotation, I was in on a circ of a teenage boy. I forget why he was having it done then - I think he had a genetic issue and there were problems that required circ'ing. But there was a problem with the anesthesia. He died on the table. They were able to get him back, but I just couldn't get that image out of my head. I dont' want my son to ever have general anesthesia for something I could have taken care of sooner and avoided those risks.

So, once again a very rare thing that probably shouldn't be a major factor, but for me it was huge.

But I also am just used to the way the circ'd ones look and DH was also wanting a circ for the matching reasons.

Enjoy the beginning of a lifetime of making tough decisions for your kids!

[j]

Haven't read other comments yet, but they look pretty lengthy, so I guess people are very opinionated about this.

We had my son cut. I felt that it probably was not the "right" thing to do, because it really probably is not medically or otherwise necessary. I copped out by leaving the decision to my husband, knowing that he would choose to have him cut. Most of my friends are Jewish, so I knew that they would all support the decision. I'm sure it hurt to get it done, but I'm also sure they don't remember it after a few minutes.

[Slim]

Didn't circ, for all the reasons other people have stated except the one about female genital mutilation, a comparison that bugs me because FGM is so much more severe, more painful, and NEVER medically necessary.
If I had a girl, I wouldn't pierce her ears when she was a baby. I don't think it's my place to decide to alter someone else's body. But I know ear-piercing in some groups is culturally important, so I'm not saying Boo hiss to everyone who has it done. I'm just saying I'm glad that's not part of my culture.

[shaunacat]

This is a subject that I have little experience with and I have no intention of trying to 'sway' your choice either way. I just thought I'd throw in my thought with everyone else's. :o)

I just found out in early december that I am pregnant with my first, so this is something I have begun to think about. My husband is cut, and I must say that I personally find the appearance of uncut penises to be...well, just not attractive.

That being said, I will elect to have this baby cut should it be a boy. I am sure my husband would agree, as he seems to have suffered no ill effects from his own circ. It also just seems to be more attractive and the thought of what nastiness can grow under there without proper cleaning...well, just yuck. Eliminate the problem if you can, I say.

Just my opinion!

[Dana]

We did not have our son circumsized, even though my dh is, because I personally find the "to make him look like Daddy" reason to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Would you have your infant daughter's clitoris surgically altered to make it look like yours? Have her labia removed because they "serve no real purpose"? The only reason circumsision is still an accepted form of child abuse and mutilation is that it has been done for so long that a lot of people simply act like sheep and do what everyone else did without giving it serious thought.

My son is 2 1/2 and we've had no trouble caring for his penis. It is easy to clean and keep clean. I've heard the argument that adult men have infections, sometimes so severe that they must have a circumsision done as an adult. That is unfortunate and most likely results from a lack of cleanliness. I've also read a study in which 100 circumsized infant males and 100 uncircumsized adult males were studied and it was found that the infection rate was almost identical - in other words, just as many circumsized infants end up with infections as uncircumsized adults. So with me the "avoids infection" excuse doesn't fly. And, personally, I could never cause my infant pain intentionally, and any parent that could sickens me.

All of that said, I will also say that it is a personal decision. What I have said is *MY OPINION* and not something I make an ultimate judgement of others on. Whatever decision you and your husband make will be beacause it is what *YOU* feel is best for *YOUR* child.

However - it is a decision that BOTH PARENTS should make together, like all other parenting decisions. Trust me - if your husband decides one way and you later wish the opposite had been done (especially if what was decided is irreversible!) you may very well come to resent him for his decision. Also, I know some circumsized men who have very strong feelings against whoever "did this to them" - it would be awful for that to focus only on one parent, as parents should be a united front.

[Valerie]

We did indeed have our son circumcised. As in your house my husband is in charge of the penises in this house.

[tracy]

I mentioned to my mom (a L&D) nurse that I didn't know whether to circ if we had a boy, and she was all, "What's to decide?" So apparently everyone here still does it, and before they leave the hospital (although those who don't have a hospital birth might be the ones who aren't doing it). I was just relieved that we had a girl and didn't have to make that decision. There are good reasons for and against, and though the reasons for tend to be cultural, rather than medical, that doesn't make them invalid.

[Dana]

Incidentally, I am not a "crunchy granola" person. I had a hospital birth with an epidural, I don't homeschool, I don't attachment parent or any of the other buzzwords out there - before anyone goes and assumes that I'm so radical hippy and writes me off.

[susan]

Circumcision lowers the risk of acquiring (and transmitting) HPV (human papilloma virus) by up to 63%. HPV in uncircumcized males is associated with an increase in cervical cancer in the woman they have intercourse with.

I spent 7 years with an uncircumcized mate and he was very proud of his European parents who had chosen to not "cut him." Unfortunately for me, he transmitted. The following years of painful cryosurgery and emotional issues surrounding my diagnosis of cervical cancer were difficult to say the least.

If I knew then what I know now....

[Sam]

There's a lot of comments, and due to time restraints I haven't been able to read all of them. On the off chance you make it this far, I think I have a different perspective to offer.

I have a son, and I also let my husband decide what to do. My husband was for circumcision, but not because he wanted our son to look like him. Quite the opposite. My husband is uncircumcised, and grew up being very ashamed of his penis. He hated locker rooms and actually is quite prudish. He did not want the same for his son. His 3 other brothers were also uncircumcised until one of them had to have the operation done at the age of 14 because of persistant infections. Can you imagine having it done at 14?

Anyway, just a different view. My husband often wishes his mom had it done for him at birth. Oh, and BTW, they took my son and brought him back in 30 minutes. He wasn't crying or in distress at all. He just slept. It wasn't at all traumatic for us.

[Moxie]

We didn't for a very simple reason: It wasn't our penis. The penis belongs to my son, and he has the right to make decisions like that about his own body. So for now it's uncut. If he wants to get himself circumcized, or tattooed, or pierced when he's older, that's his right to control his own body (although if he gets his penis pierced I'd hope he wouldn't tell me about it). I wouldn't want soeone else to make decisions about my body, so I didn't think I had the right to do that to someone else just because that person was small.

After having taken care of a newborn, I am *so* glad we didn't do it, because it just would have been one more thing to worry about keeping from getting infected. But as I said, if my son wants to do it later (with proper anaesthsia and pain meds afterwards) it's none of my business.

In the US the current rate is about 50%, so neither kind of penis is going to stand out in the locker room.