Careers and motherhood

**Saying this upfront so that no one gets the panties twisted – I am G E N E R A L I Z I N G here, speaking in broad brush strokes, k? I know not ALL women feel this way, or ALL men do that, or ALL men do this, or whatever. Just generalizing based on MY experience. Oh and yes, I also DO acknowledge that SAHM’s have a tough time, this is not about who has it worse, this is about the career/motherhood dilemma, k? Every one on the same page? Goooood**

Here’s a question to those of you who manage to be career focused and at the same time be an involved mother – how the hell do you do it??

My friend Bee and I were chatting about this topic the other day. We were marvelling at how some mothers managed to be successful career women who climbed the corporate ladder, who worked late, travelled etc. Because it is damn difficult to focus on your career when you are a mother, especially a mother to young children. Perhaps it does get easier when the kids get older, or perhaps these women have wonderful husbands who take care of the kids.

One of my customers is a woman who is pretty high up in her organization, a big multinational corporation. She travels extensively, she works 14-hour days. And her youngest child is 5. How the hell does she do it?

Who bathes the kids? Who feeds them?

I can’t work late. I can’t go to work functions. I can’t come in at sparrows fart and work 14-hour days. I have to go home and take care of my children.

I am the only woman in the team I work in; there are five of us, including my boss.  Before the kids, I used to work long hours, come in early etc. I can’t do that any more. I don’t think they hold it against me, I think they understand, but the crazy thing is that each of them have wives that stay at home. So they can socialize at functions, they can work late etc. Because the wife is home doing the job I need to leave early for.

I think as liberal as the corporate world claims to be, there is a bias against women and especially mothers. I have experienced this myself – when people hear you have young kids they are not that keen to take you on, because they know, rightly so, that often the mother is the one that has to take off early if her child has a doctors appointment etc. Yes, I am sure that some fathers do this, but in my experience it is mostly the mothers who have to juggle the two roles. I think that secretly, most men would rather employ a man than a mother to young kids.

I am exceptionally fortunate in that my manager, and my company, recognises that I have this dual responsibility. They have been amazingly supportive, arranging business trips so that I am away from home as little as possible, or allowing me to leave work early to take the kids to an appointment. I am really lucky, I know many others aren’t.

The other day at lunch, the guys I work with were talking about what they wanted to do next in terms of careers, business opportunities, start ups etc. They are all go getter kind of guys, people who have owned their own businesses. They asked me what I wanted to do next, where I saw myself in five years time. And it was then that I realized once again, how different it is for some/most fathers. These guys have the luxury of choice – of being able to go out there and start up a new business, work long hours, travel etc. Where do I see myself in five years? To have enough money so that I don’t HAVE to work. Or to have a job that allowed me to spend as much time as possible with the kids as well. I know that in order to climb the career ladder I would need to be a lot more aggressive in terms of time spent, travel, studying etc. And right now, that would mean more time away from my kids.

I just can’t do it. I hate that I feel as if other people judge me for it – as if I am not driven enough, as if I am settling in terms of career. I’ve become a bit of a crusader about working moms at work. It’s probably a fruitless exercise, but I want the men, especially the men in management positions to acknowledge that saying you can’t work late, or that you can’t accept that promotion, that it’s not about not wanting to work hard, or about dedication, it’s about having to divide up your day between work and your kids, and that the kids need their mom as well, especially when they are so little. (And besides the kids needing to see me, I need to see them! I can’t imagine seeing them for only a few minutes, if at all, for days on end) I want them to acknowledge that it’s damn hard being a working mom. As I said, it’s probably a fruitless exercise.

It is hard to have a career and be an involved mother, it really is. How do you deal with it? Those of you who have managed to be ambitious, driven, career-focused, how did / do you manage the balance?

Edited to add:  I've done a poll exploring this issue - I just want to make the distinction between working / having a job (in order to get a salary at the end of the month) and being career focused / climbing the corporate ladder etc.

And another thing – some people HAVE to work. Yes they do. Do NOT come with that bullshit that every one has the luxury of choosing whether they want to work or not. Some people HAVE to work in order to put food on the table. Just talk to any single mom, or alternatively, come to South Africa and see what it is like to live without two salaries, or even one. So, none of this BS judgement of others who have to work to earn a salary. This is a discussion about climbing the corporate ladder.

Comments

[Jenn in AK]

It's the rare woman that can focus on her career and be a good mom to her kids, good wife to her husband. The RARE woman. The woman you speak about who has a 5 year old...IMHO, she's not a good mom at all. She should have chosen motherhood or career before she had the kid. Now the kid's here and is being overlooked for the career.

I work my own business, on my own time and stay home with my daughter. Do we go without some things? You bet, unless I make the money for it. I'm going to visit my mom next month with DD because Mom bought the $700 ticket today. It was more than I had planned on spending on a ticket and extras that big aren't happening this month.

The whole idea that women can be both mom and career woman - to me - is crap. Yes, some have to do it in the short term (like you), but others who make their career their long term focus...that's selfish.

I know they say it's the quality of the time and not the quantity you spend with kids. I only agree with that to an extent. It has to be a balance.

Jenn

[b]

Everyone has the luxury of choice.

Pre-child you chose to have children. Post-child you are choosing to *horrors* ratchet back the corporate world in honor of that choice.

All you can be is who and what you CHOSE to be now.

and if others CHOOSE to judge you, you still have a choice....to live YOUR life in spite of what THEY think.

It's isn't their fault they think they can judge you.

Oh wait...it is....however, you can CHOOSE to just ignore the assholes.

i have a job too. it isn't my priority anymore and i am not a stay at home mom. my priority is the people i mentor on my off time, the research that i do that will help them (and me)learn and grow on our CHOSEN way of life.

I take all kinds of grief from everyone everyday. Makes my hair fall out, i think, but i am not going to let them or anyone else call the shots in my life.

i have to support myself and my boss values my input greatly. i offered to quit a couple of time and i thought he was going to have a heart attack right there.

so. i didn't. honestly, i was relieved.

this is pretty stilted, sorry, but i think you understand....

[b]

sorry, should read 'not a mom', period.

[Laurie]

Jenn, I have to disagree with you. Making a judgment that Tertia's client is "not a good mom" on a two-sentence description of her life is unfair. Isn't it more supportive to moms everywhere to assume things are good instead of assuming they aren't? Maybe the (assumed) two hours a day this mom spends with her kids are exceptional. Maybe she has a nanny who helps top off the "mother cup o' love" her children need. Maybe her husband stays at home full time. Maybe she's the sole support of her family. Who knows? If we are judgmental about each other, our bosses and co-workers and society in general will continue to be judgmental about us. Why does being a mom who earns an outside income mean there is a point at which we are good or bad? I think it is a day-by-day personal sliding scale for each of us.

Tertia, I have twins too - about to turn 5 (the bottle poppers!). I have a professional position within a pretty big corporation. I'm lucky - my female boss has twins that are a bit older. She's very supportive because she's BTDT so knows a lot about what I go through to balance work, husband and kids. I moved to this company from another company that I loved but that was much more stressful and not as flexible - I had to, to keep my family and myself sane. I'm the major breadwinner so there is no question about whether I work or not. If I don't, there goes the health insurance, the 401K plan, and the college fund. I leave the house at 7:30 and rush to get home at 5:30 - and work after everyone goes to bed or before they get up, if I need to. I also have a nanny that is unbelievably wonderful. She gives my kids her all but respects that I'm the mom. My kids adore her and I'm happy and fortunate that they do. Am I "letting someone else raise my kids?” Some folks think so - but I look at it more like I've invited someone who can give my kids a different perspective and things that I wouldn't be able to even if I stayed at home full time. (Come to think of it, saying I'm letting someone else raise my kids is just as ridiculous has saying a SAHM is selfish and controlling because she doesn't.) What I've found, after five years of juggling, is that you develop an evolving sense of what works for your family and for you personally at that point in time. When the kids are babies, they need you all the time. At five, a little less. When they get into grade school and get even older, my guess is that my yearning to be with them every second will cut back in parallel with the their decreasing need to be with me all the time. The scale of work vs. family is always tipping one way or the other, any you just have to accept that. If you and your family are, over the long haul, in balance, then whatever you're doing it right.

[Kathy]

OK - I'll jump in here. I've said it before -- I was a better mom because I worked! I love my daughter to the bottom of my soul, but I would have gone crazy being with her 24/7. My patience would have worn thin, I would not have been patient with her, and she would have suffered. She had excellent day care (Family the first year of her life, then an excellent in-home care giver until pre-school.) Her dad took her to the babysitter in the morning, and I picked her up in the afternoon. When I got her, I was delighted to see her. We spent quality time together every night. I firmly believe in my case that quality was far more important than quantity. So, those would say "you let other people raise your child." I say, I had other people HELP me raise my child -- big difference. She is a better person for it. She learned to interact with other adults (in addition to learning how to get along with other children.) She is a well-adjusted adult now. I asked her not too long ago if she felt somehow slighted because I worked, and she assured me that it left no scars at all!

I better stop now before I cross that line into SAHM vs working mom, but I will say one thing first: SAHMs, I do not judge you for the decisions you made; I commend you for doing what is/was best for you and your family. I ask you to give me the same courtesy, please do not judge me for doing what was best for me and my family!

Bottom line, yes, one can pursue a career and be a good mom. It just takes balance and planning!

[Boulder]

Why do we as women continue to judge other women? Just because someone has a perspective that deviates from our own choices? That is a shit thing for one woman to do to another. Why not take the "wow, I am so very fortunate to have the ability to live MY life the way I think is best for my family," and leave it at that?

Tertia, you are a trailblazer there in your office, and some mom who comes along, after you managed to move on, will be the welcome beneficiary of your efforts. I applaud you for that. And I applaud your boss for recognizing that you are very motivated to give this tough situation your best effort. Acknowledging, out loud and in writing, your difficulty in strking the balance makes you that much more human. And gives other moms who work outside their homes each day because they have no other choice, like you do not, to strike a semblance of hope because they will know that they are not alone in the world trying as you are.

I think many moms who work outside the home are conflicted about how to maximize their "face" time with office types who determine their performance reviews, etc. while still striking a balance that gives them the "face" time with their families. A woman's work is never easy no matter when it starts, or where it takes place, that is for certain.

I think an interesting question is how many SA companies go out of their way to make their companies hospitable for working moms? With things like on-site nurseries, and other creative childcare incentives? Many a US magazine has rankings about "Best Places to be a Working Parent," and "Top Companies for Working Moms," etc. It would be interesting to note which things aid in ranking a company in the US, and whether those types of things are at all fashionable in SA.

I really must say how much I admire you for your honesty, and for going to work each morning knowing how much you would rather spend time the with Kate & Adam, if only you could. Some day, my friend, some day.

[Blondie]

I think I chose the answer in the poll that perfectly describes the way I feel. Working & being a mother means that both will suffer a little. My priorities area bit skewed at times and I have the midget racing somewhere in the back of my mind...or running literally across my office desk at home.

I don't want to jump in an argue with anyone or be a voice of dissent. I think I could do better in all aspects. Right now I'm looking for a better job to help me climb up the ladder again...

Tertia, I do think you've got an awesome employer and that you're doing a great job managing parenting/work. Its not easy...no two ways about it...its a tough road to travel. You're always tired and wondering when your next day off or vacation is. I think it gets a bit easier as the kids get older. I know my son is needy but overall he's very independant and I have more freedoms.

Stay G & D dear Tertia and kiss the babes for me! Hell, kiss Marko too! ;-p lol And give Rose a big appreciative hug...Ya'll are so lucky to have such a beautiful lady helping out with the kiddos. ;-p lol

Ciao!

[Liz]

I worked after having my first child. I wasn't in any high position, but it was still work, time away from my son. And hubby and I still had to attend work functions, etc. Fortunately we had different working schedules. He went to work earlier than I did, so when he got home, he would take care of the our son, cook, and do all kinds of stuff around the house until I got home. I'm a very lucky woman. If we do have to attend work functions, we are lucky that we can drop son with my parents on weekends.

But that was an 8-hour day job. We didn't have to travel, work overtime. I can't imagine to work 14-hours trying to climb the corp. ladder with a young child at home.

[Kim]

But surely those men you talked about do live off one income, if their wives don't work? They may have the "luxury of choice" but they support their partners. Would you want Marko to stay home?

[andrea]

I gave up my "career" for my family- yes I still work full time in a job I enjoy but unfortunatly one of us had to give up climbing the ladder and it was me!

[Sassy]

I've posted about this before I think, so to summarise I'd say it can't be done. I think it's very healthy for everyone for the primary carer to work at least a few hours per week while the child(ren) are in some form of care, but when the primary carer is working 12 hour days I think the kids and parents both end up losing.

What angers me is that I was told I could have a career, I could be Prime Minister, I could head a multi-national all while being the perfect wife and mother. I think if you want to go for the big jobs they should be your priority but who can prioritise over their children? What will the children lose?

Saying that I'm a 21 year old infertile with no kids who has suspended her career and her education so her husband can work 14 hour days and the house can stay clean. I get criticised for that from everyone.

[Melissa4444]

I'm a SAHM. So I don't know that my comments bear any weight in this discussion. BUT. I don't know how you do it! Any of you. I don't know how you manage to juggle both career/job with motherhood, and being a wife. Sadly, I think the way you probably do it is by sacrificing 'you' time. (Though, I don't know that SAHMs get much of that either).

I just know, that for the most part, you seem to do it so well. But my heart breaks for you. I have a lot of friends who have to work. And I know the torment they feel. And I wish that it was not necessary.

I don't agree with you T that it is a fruitless quest, to try to make people more aware of issues for working Mums. I'll bet women who campaigned for women's votes etc wondered about that too.

Maybe, one day, things will be different. And people (especially other Mums, who I think can be the most judgemental of all!)will be more sensitive to the balance you are trying to achieve.

Until then, I'll have to do. My hat goes off to you all. Seriously. I don't know how you do it.

[Faith]

Tertia-- that workaholic woman with the 5 year old? She's a friggin' liar. Don't let people like that fool you. There are only so many hours in a day. And kids who have to go to school have to go to bed early, soooooo.....regardless of what she says she's doing at home, exactly WHEN is she seeing her child? Women who sling this line of B.S. make it hard for REAL working mothers like you. They make the real mom's feel like they are less competent because they can't stay late and come in early and fly to Timbuktu AND look like a million bucks AND somehow manage to read a book to their little ones and tuck them in bed at night and make their lunches and attend their soccer games too. And I think they get their jollys off of deceiving the rest of us into thinking we are less competent than they are. But do the math. If she's doing all she says she's doing.....somebody else is taking care of her kid, and that's that.

Now when and if you ever can find the time, you HAVE to read this New York magazine article:

EMPIRE OF THE ALPHA MOM: Does the world need a Martha Stewart of parenting? Isabel Kallman would like to submit her resume.

Once you read about this....oh let me not call her a 4 letter word. But once you read about this chick who's starting a how-to cable company for mothers-- you'll never buy into this "Alpha Mom" crap again. (And yes, I do have a scowl on my face right now. This crap makes me angry.)

Best wishes, as always.

Faith
SAHM who supports Working Moms.
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/features/12026/index.html

[Faith]

....and by the way. I voted that you can have a career AND be a mom-- but both the mom role and the career role suffers a little. Few things in life are perfect. Even being a SAHM isn't perfect. You do the best you can with what you've got, and you make the most of it. But you can't do the best you can with what you've got if you aren't at least HONEST about what you've got.

[ericalil]

I'm cringing a bit as I read your post, Tertia, because if I'm lucky to have a few kids (I'm finally adopting, to hell with this pregnancy bullshit!) soon, I will feel as you do. I also will HAVE to work, to pay the mortgage and bills. Maybe some day, my husband will make enough for me to go to part-time or stay at home.

So, I know I'll feel as you do, and all I can say is you are a GREAT mother for trying to maximize the amount of time you have with the kids, there will be time when they are much older for you to accelerate your career goals. It's very tough, but I think these women who work the long hours and climb the corporate ladder now, while their kids are little, are doing so at the expense of those little tots.

My cousin is a the top of her company. While her kids were little, she only saw them on the weekends! She travelled monday-friday. Can you imagine? Those kids were STARVED for her attention on the weekends, they couldn't get enough of her! She had a stay at home husband and a nanny, and yet the kids craved their mom's love. It was painful to watch. She later divorced, and because of her career focus, she wanted joint custody, on the weekends. Her ex-husband still sees the kids more than she does, but she doesn't travel as much any more.

I'm not judging her lifestyle, it's kind of the exact reverse of the "typical" scenario. Those are her choices, but I know I am not as driven as her to succeed in the workplace, and if I could at all stay home with kids more, I would do it in a heartbeat.

OK, I"m rambling, sorry for the length. You're doing a great job, T, it must be tough when there aren't other working mom's on your team, but if anyone can get them to understand your situation, it's you!

erica

[kelly]

I think it can be done. This is not a judgment against anyone, but my husband is a huge partcipater at home, I have to work late, well then he does bath and bedtime. I have to work on a Saturday (like right this moment?) then he gets the stuff at home and vice versa. At the same time because I don't have a problem working late, schmoozing, coming in early and working weekends I pretty much can cut out early to go do things at my son's school.

With that said, yes it is immensely easier in some ways when they get older. i WAH doing consulting until T was 3 and I don't think i could have done it different. But my job doesn't suffer (i get excellent reviews, merit increases and promotions) and neither does my home life. But I have one child and a husband who has as much flexibility and desire to do the little things that i do.

[kelly]

I should have added it does make it immensley easier that my son starts school very late for the US in general (9 AM) so we in general all get up a little later so he can stay up later so only if I get home v.v. late do I miss seeing him. And if I know that is the case I cut out and go eat lunch with him at school. So yes, it can happen but it has to be the right mix of all the variables, I happen to have just struck gold with it :)

[barbie]

Tertia, I also have twins and I do work also-part time. I gave up my career, or should say put it on hold, once my babies were born. My salary wasn't big enough to put 2 babies into daycare or hire a nanny - I would end up working to pay the daycare/nanny. But, I HAD to work to help pay for bills, mortgage, etc.

Right now, I do have it easy. I work really early in the morning until my husband goes to work. As soon as I walk in the door, he walks out the door. We have just enough time to relay the morning information (what time did they get up, etc) and a quick kiss on the cheek and away he goes off to work.

Do I like my job? NO I absolutely hate it. I gave up a great job (I'm still with the same company - they were able to offer me a different position - something flexible around my husbands work schedule). I'm lucky my husband is so hands on with the babies and has no problems looking after them until I come home. I gave up a job that I loved to do something that I hate. But it was the sacrifice I made to avoid the high daycare costs and still be home with the babies. I don't regret it at all and I know that once the babies are a bit older, I can go and find something that I like a little better.

Tertia,I know it's not easy being away from the babies, but you are doing what's best for you and your family. Like my company, it sounds like your company is flexible too. You don't want to go to all the extra activities outside of work, or work all that overtime you used to because you want to see your babies. And your company understands that. Hat's off to them!!

In the end, it is what works best for your family. You have a wonderful person looking after your babies (you are so lucky you have Rose!) who loves them just as much as you do. And YOU are still very much a part of your babies lives.

[Beth]

Hi, Delurking for this great topic. What really struck me about your post is that the five guys that you work with have wives who stay home. I assume this means that they make more money than you do and that sucks. You should be getting equal pay for equal work. Women have come a long way in the workplace but we still have a long way to go.

[Jessy]

Absolutely, it's possible to do both, but in my experience and observations, there need to be two conditions in place for it to happen relatively easily: 1. The job has to have a fair amount of flexibility, and 2. the traditional family roles have to be redefined within the context of the parents' situations.

As an example, one woman I know (an academic) did the following: 1. while she was pregnant, collected a TON of data in lab; 2. while on maternity leave, wrote up the data and got a bunch of publications; 3. while her husband took his paternity leave (is this common in SA?), returned to work and really focused on her career. In some ways, she was able to use the system well to her advantage, because the time off for maternity leave didn't count toward her "tenure clock" but she was able to spit out some papers during it anyway, thus improving her chances of being promoted. It wouldn't have worked, probably, if her husband (an attorney) hadn't been willing to take a similar 'ding' to his career.

[ann]

disclaimer: i have not read any other responses.also, this got much larger than i wanted it to.

i've worked for a very large international financial services company since before i had children. i was the same as you - very motivated and driven before they were born (i have 2 singletons, 6 & 3 now).
after i had my first son, i realized and for the most part, accepted, that i could not have both - be career focused (again, not just hold a "job") and motherhood - that they were mutually exclusive.
with that said, i've simply aspired to be the very best at both my job (note, not my "career") & at motherhood. once i accepted that i would not be blazing a trail to the top because it would come at the expense of my children, my work-life balance became much easier. now i just concentrate on being the best employee that i can possibly be - doing a great job when i am there, occassionally volunteering for extra work and just generally trying to make smart decisions to keep my work-life balance tolerable for me. ironically enough, i've just been identified as being "high-potential" by our european management. (and it is true irony, but that's a different story)

to me, my true "career" is my kids and motherhood. in my day job (that pays me an inordinate amount of money and has some amazing benefits, but for the most part just helps the rich get richer), i am not researching to find a cure for cancer or doing anything that is going to leave this world a better place. my most important legacy in this life is going to be my children.
what i've seen in financial services, the people who make it to the top (be it male OR female) make incredible money - but are at the whim of the corporate trends -- they can be terminated/let go in the blink of an eye. i refuse to give my soul to a corporation that has no loyalty to me -- i prefer to give it to my kids.
this is such a great topic. i've found that it's not easy being a good employee & a good mother, and unfortunately, it just gets harder as the kids get older.
best to you.

[Leslie]

When my kids were tiny my husband and I ran a home-based business. It gave us the flexibility to both be around and involved other than the third of the time he was traveling. I didn't travel as much and could rely on my parents for help when I had to. That worked very well for us but obviously most people don't have the option to make that work.

These days he works a more conventional job and I'm self-employed. It gives me the flexibility to carry more of the doctors appointments, etc. Have I put my career on the back burner? Yes, but not in the way you'd expect because I'm an artist and the years working in business with my husband were a necessary diversion from making art because I also like to eat, have a roof over my head, clothing, etc.

I think it's hard for a woman to have a full career largely because everyone assumes that she's the only one who has to make all the adjustments to deal with childcare anad running a household. We've really had our noses rubbed in it the last several months because I broke my ankle and cannot drive, cook, clean, etc. With only one of us able to do all that stuff AND work it all falls behind. For us the only really functional way to support two careers and three kids is a highly organized dance and it turns out to pretty fragile - one big interruption like my ankle or family illness last spring throws it all into a mess.

[Judy]

Tertia - I come here, day after day, because I am simply in awe at what you do. You exhaust me with everything you have going on - and I admire you so much for holding a job you enjoy while still raising those two little beans! I think simply getting in the car, going to a job and coming home several hours later is so admirable, never mind what you accomplish while you are gone! I think what you do means a lot to many out there who are trying to make it work as well. You come here, you tell of your successes and your trials, and people READ about them and learn from what you say.

You, my friend, are a pioneer. A role model. A damn fine mother. a GODDESS!

[fisherwife]

Don't play the blame game. As mothers, we do that all day long. My mother blamed herself for a congenital defect that I had at birth. Never mind that she wasn't aware of it. Never mind that it doesn't slow me down any.

T., many above are right in saying that the comparison game is based on a lie. I don't believe that anyone can have it all. Money certainly helps with the issues that you face...but it wouldn't eliminate them. Time is finite here on earth. There's only 24 in a day. Sleep is a necessary thing, girl. It sounds a little like you need some more of that since before the babies were even born! I've followed your story since your second trimester. I have empathy for your situation. This is one SAHM that doesn't judge you, sister.

[Suzanne]

Good for you rallying for WOHM! I don't envy at all women that must work away from their babies, I do understand it, but it has to be awfully hard. I've been toying with the idea of getting a job working the midnight shift, when my babe would be asleep the whole time, but that still makes me sad that I wouldn't be there to snuggle in the early morn!

And FWIW, I'm a SAHM but my husband works 2 jobs for us to make ends meet. One pays the household bills, the other pays our debts and some luxuries. Sometimes he leaves when baby is asleep and comes home after she is asleep and it is ROUGH on him. He recently went away for an overnight trip and he had tears in his eyes as he was leaving. For him, it is hard to be away and he wishes he could be with her more. She is 100% daddy's girl and they have the most amazing relationship. So I'm sure to some extent men feel the pulling at their heartstrings, but it is not "socially acceptable" for them to acknowledge that. You know what I mean?

[Franziska]

Tertia, I do think it is possible, BUT your job needs to have a certain amount of flexibility and you need help at home and you need an understanding boss. I have had awesome female managers that didn't work tons of overtime and didn't travel much when the kids were little - and they still managed to do a better job than most men.

I am fortunate to have a great boss who is very understanding. He told me he actually prefers women with children to work for him because they are much more effective in getting work done. Also, as a project manager, I have very flexible hours, I can finish stuff at night, if I have to. I do have a nanny in the mornings. But the most important thing is a supportive husband who will participate as much in the child-raising as I am. So instead of being raised by only one person, she is raised and loved and stimulated by three. I cannot see that she is missing out on anything.

You know, it really irks me, that women will blame women for trying to juggle job and children, whereas the men go blame-free. Those men at your office, how much child-time do they get? A couple of minutes during the day and some on the weekend? But thats okay in our society, thats accepted. But when a woman finds another woman to take care of her kid(s), so the kid is loved and cherished, but sees mommy the same amount of time like daddy, then this is horrendous and evil and why did you want a child in the first place? Grrrrr.

[Renee]

I always planned to work after having children. I had no problems with the idea of daycare, and never wanted to sacrifice my careerpath for anyone else. Now... I have quit my "career job" to be with my husband (Just try doing the long distance thing for two years beacause of your work...it gets old REALLY fast) and I have moved across the country to be near family. I got a job that is so flexible it is criminal, but I can't even give that job the attention it deserves. I want to be with my little girl when I am working, and I want to be working when I am with my daughter. How f*cked up is that? I am a very driven person, so I feel so guilty for not giving my all to my job. And yet...I can't do the right thing and quit, because it is my lifeline to the outside world. It is my escape into adult conversation. Very morose now.

[Wylie]

I hit the wall on this subject about a year before we went down the pregnancy path.

I'd been working in a job that demanded late hours and lots of post work functions and volunteerism. It was getting so that I couldn't even hold together a relationship, never mind a parenting role. I actually forgot my own mother's birthday. Can you believe it?

That was a rough time and I had to leave that sector of my profession. Partly because it was tiring me out. But the other part? I realized that it was totally incompatible with my plans for the future. Specifically, my plans for children.

So I ended up taking a significant (okay, HUGE!) paycut to work in a more relaxed environment, with a boss who had kids and co-workers with children. Less money, less opportunity for travel or advancement, but a more kid-friendly, flexible workplace.

And I had to change my expectations to recognize that I'd likely be doing a job rather than having a career for the next ten to fifteen years. If there was a chance to start moving and shaking after that, well . . .

It was a choice I made. I could've tried to to both, but the stress (not to mention the guilt) would've killed me. I need to work (not only because I eventually want to have a profession to return to, but also because I have mountainous student loans that require my income to pay back) - it's not really a question of IF.

I had to spend time grieving the career that I spent six years of post-secondary education trying to break into. I spent time wondering why I even bothered. But ultimately, I think you can find a balance, as long as your expectations are reasonable, your support is good and you're prepared to be realistic.

[maia]

No idea about the corporate ladder. I work for the 'extras'and have recently been fortunate enough to find a position that is perfect for us. I work 9-3 4 days a week. The kids are in school, I am working, busy, stimulated. Win, win all round.

[unexplained]

Bravo, everyone, for the calm, rational discussion. I agree that if you're building a career (and not just working 9-5, leaving it there) and raising a family, both have to suffer a little bit. And actually, it may also be the case for people who have 9-to-5-and-never-bring-work-home jobs, that each has to suffer a little. I only know what it's like in my career.

What gets my panties in a twist is when people argue that special accomodation should be made for mothers - that the bar for promotion should be lower for women than for men because we have other responsibilities (I scanned the comments and I don't think that was in there). I made a choice to take on a career that requires 50 to 60 hour work weeks if you really want to make it (of course, I didn't really believe it took that many hours, but I was apparently deluded ). It would be better for everyone involved if this career WEREN'T that way; careers like mine got to this point because the people who set the standard were men with wives taking care of everything at home.

Of course, I don't have kids, so WTF do I know ;).

[Suzie-Q.]

I am a single mother of twin 8 month olds who did IVF and used donor sperm, so, no second income here. In fact, no $$ at all here since I did my IVF and the market crash a few years ago. All this coincided with my turning 40 and realizing i HAD to get moving on making a baby(ies) and decided to leave my very high paying, top level career in New York City in order to move to a small, suburban town in Florida to be near family (v. important to rasing children especially when single) where there is very little work, but, would be a much better place to raise kids than New York City ("hell").
I made an EXTREMELY conscious decision to give up a BIG career for a job (i will ALWAYS have to work to support my family).
The problem is that even BEFORE i had children and put myself in this harder financial situation so that I could spend time with them, I found the corporate world STILL not female friendly. I think it is a load of crap that we can make the same as men even in high paying jobs (generally). I found in the consulting firm i worked in as Director of Human Resources, that even as a single without children I got less $$, less respect and less opportunity than men and always had to prove myself.
I know I could never stay home all day alone with my twinks if i could afford it even though I love them fiercely. I would still need to get out of the house to stay sane and would get great live-in help (like Rose!) even if it was just to be able to get my hair done, play tennis and meet my gal pals for liquid lunches.

I think that when you have a career and have to put in many hours, travel, attend functions, etc. EVERYTHING and EVERYONE suffers a bit. Your children, your husband, your friendships, and you.
But, I think that everyone is entitled to do it however it works best for them and makes them happiest. Remember, a woman who chooses to have an intense career will usually not be happy to be a SAHM and vice versa, there are some women who choose to be mommies who have to work for $$ to survive and they will hate their jobs and not be so committed to them.

I think that everyone should stop lying to us about the following:

"We can have it all".
We can't.

"We can get pregnant with IVF easily into our 40's, why, just look at Geena Davis and Joan Lunden".
We can't.

"Women are on par with men and treated equally in the coporate workplace".
We're not.

It especially burns me when women (our sisters) say this crap! It is bullshit and we need to start saying so and take control of this unspoken conspiracy to keep women down.

Hats off to you, G & D Tertia for doing your part at work and on this blog... just being aware of a problem is half the battle.

My opinion only. Feel free to attack. I can take it and i won't apologize!!

[goodsandwich]

I know it's not possible in our family to do both, at least right now with our son 9 months old and my constant low energy. My career involves self-employment, so at least I am (sort of) making the choices about reduced hours, no new clients, putting off research/publication, etc. My husband has made the decision to slow his corporate committments because of fatherhood, & it does hurt -- either he can be with us or his career can grow more quickly, but not both at the same time (and this is in a v family-oriented company). Don't your men co-workers miss their families too? I think that when a corp would, as you say, rather hire/promote a man than a mum of young children, that corp is not only saying "Mums are unreliable" but also "Children don't need or deserve their father's time" and "Fathers' feelings don't count." It's all bullshit all the time and I'm glad you stick up for yourself.

About that 14-hour/traveling mum: I like to remember that Anne Lamott says not to compare our insides with other people's outsides. We don't know how she feels inside no matter how successful she looks/is, and I bet you look so put-together on the outside (esp w/your new Botox!) that many other career mums would also wonder of you, "How does she do it -- and with TWINS!?"

[ElizabethM]

Ah - this one hit home. My daughter is 8 months old and your blog and Julia's have kept me laughing throught the process. I'm also 13 weeks naturally pregnant with my second (after multiple IVF's the first time around!) I have my own business - freelance web design/software development. And right now, while I am continuing to do the minimum I can to keep my clients - I am not expanding.

What I struggle with is that I used to spend my time doing my own projects - I eventually want to have my own software/web company. But now, I don't have the time. Which means I'm falling behind on new technology. I figure for the next 3-5 years I'm just going to have to stagnate or barely keep up professionally. It's hard but I do enjoy being home with my daughter - and I'm so lucky that I can.

My plan is when the kids go to school, I'll take some time - figure out what I really want to do; acquire any new skills/eduation and then get going. For now, I'll do what I can to stay somewhat current :) Also, my mother started Medical School at age 36 with 3 kids (6,4, and 1 grade) and finally opened her own gastroenterology practice at age 50. She's my role model!

Best of luck...often lurked..never posted.

[kris]

I work a PT job--and it's in a school--so I get lots of holiday time and summers off. My husband is in education, too, so he is here to help out a lot as well. I personally don't have the energy to work FT in an 8 hr/day job and be a good mom, too--much less a 14 hr day. Sometimes I'm not even a good mom working PT. But I think others may have better time management skills and childcare arrangements, and they are probably more successful. I think that work or mothering inevitably suffers when you work FT. But if you have a really good partner to help out, then it can really compensate. My husband is an amazing dad--esp. to my 2year old (the 3 month old baby is still nearly attached to me). I suspect he wouldn't be as involved if I didn't work (I probably wouldn't be as comfortable asking for assistance). I think my son has benefitted from having so much contact with his father--he's probably much better off than he would be with me home all day. Having said that, our daycare arrangement is not ideal--and if we had to put them there FT, I'd feel pretty awful about it. Of course, if I worked FT, I could afford a nanny....

[kelly]

You know, it really irks me, that women will blame women for trying to juggle job and children, whereas the men go blame-free. Those men at your office, how much child-time do they get? A couple of minutes during the day and some on the weekend?-- Franziska

I hear you here. That is what bothers me the most, those dads aren't seeing the kids if they are coming in early, staying late and doing company functions. Yes my husband and I both work, but we have tried to be in flexible positions with lots of vacation and holidays to use. So, yes sometimes one of us stays late, but the other one is almost always at home with our son. Sometimes one of us travels for the week, but then its T and I having date night or them having boys night out when we get home.

But I hate the way people will disparage women for working and not for men.

[Lisa C.]

Tertia, your whole post really hits home with me. I have a 27-month-old son, and I work full time. As far as career advancement, I have put my plans on hold. I work shift work, 3 - 11 PM five days a week. From the time my son was 6 weeks old to 18 months, my husband and I split shifts and I worked the night shift from 11 PM - 7 AM. That was the hardest 18 months of my life, my husband and I literally never saw each other, but we got through it and it saved us a ton of money in babysitting costs.

The shift work has saved me in terms of fulfilling my work requirements. As long as you show up on time and do what you're supposed to do (marginally or otherwise), the bosses are happy and everything is OK. There are no travel requirements, meetings, or off shift responsibilites, and I never even think about work when I'm not there. I'm not blazing any trails here, the only way to do that is to get out of the shift work and do normal hours with more responsibility, travel, etc. That's not an option for me at this time. In the US we call this being on the "Mommy Track." I am lucky that my Mommy Track position pays really well and gives me the hours that I need. I estimate that I will be doing shift work for at least 3 to 5 more years, until my younger child is at least 2(I'm not even pregnant yet).

This is a major sacrifice on my part. I really want an engineering position, but my children and my husband are far more important to me. I try my best to accentuate the positive and be thankful that my Mommy Track job is so good in terms of hours and pay.

It's hard to go from a corporate go getter to a mom with different priorities. That being said, I wouldn't trade my family for anything.

[Dani]

Wow.... this is waaaaay longer than I thought. Prepare to be bored to tears....

After making the changes that I've made over the past 10 years I think differently about "needing" to work. I was a workhorse since my teen years and always the youngest to be put in any position of management in the companies that I've worked for. I was sure the corporate world was the place for me. Before I got pregnant with my first I was earning the higher wage over my dh because he had switched careers and was once again at "newbie" pay (knowing the raises would be fast and furious and would pay off in the long run). I continued to work full time throughout my pregnancy... up until 6 days before delivery, in fact. Then I got a taste of 4 months maternity leave. I decided that no one other than dh and I would watch our child. I went back to work FT but only worked when dh was home. I would work 10 hour days on his days off and squeeze in as many hours as I could before and after his shifts so that I could get in my 40+ hours. Over that time I was approached numerous times about advancing in the company but turned them down... I knew the hours would be less flexible and childcare would be unavoidable. Then after kid #2 4.5 years later, I did the same thing except I got 6 months maternity and went back FT again afterward. It was going well UNTIL I turned up pregnant again (I have NO IDEA where that child came from, lol!) when #2 was only 4.5 months old. A very complicated pregnancy put me on disability with long hospital stays. DH's job was v v understanding and he was able to stay home for more than a month to take care of the 2 while I was in the hospital. My job was there waiting for me whenever I was ready. Seeing as my leave was used up mostly before he was born, I had to go back to work when he was only 2 months old (-1 week adjusted). I was totally kidding myself thinking I could go back to work full-time leaving dh home with 3 kids... 2 of them under a year old. Only a couple of weeks went by when the shit hit the fan. I was getting ready to go to work and I had a mini meltdown. I looked around at my house... it was a mess. My kids needed me, my dh needed me. I was leaving them for money. I called my boss without warning and told him I needed a leave of absence and I had no idea how long it would be. He was supportive and totally understood, telling me to take what time I needed and once again, my job would be waiting for me when I was ready. A year went by, and I wasn't really ready. I went back part time.... VERY part time. Like 6-9 hours a week. Two or three nights, that's it. That is what I've been doing for the past 4 years.

What's different about my life now? I don't need to buy new clothes every week to look my best in the professional world, nor do I need a pair of shoes to go with every outfit. All of that money on lunch/dinner on the run because I was working? It's now replaced by much less expensive food that I've prepared myself. Vacations? Don't take any. I'm not brave enough to fly with 3 kids in tow. New car every couple of years? Nope. My minivan is all I need. The cute little sports car (with the v v expensive insurance) that I'd cram coworkers into to go out or to meetings in, is long gone. I am much lower maintenance now. I found that just being home and having the time to be an educated shopper, saves us tons of money, too. The big difference is that dh makes more now, for which I feel v v fortunate. Not enough to make up for what I'm not bringing in, but we don't need to spend as much now that I'm home. It was costing me a significant amount of money to go to work, and I didn't realize it until I was home more.

"Needing" to work may have more than one meaning to different people. Before having kids I "needed" to work because of the money. After having 3 kids I thought I "needed" to work to have self-worth and hold my place in the business world. Then, I realized I was very fulfilled at home and didn't "need" to work to have a purpose. My kids are my career! :) I have the time (and energy) to be very active in the PTA, be class mom, volunteer at their school and with their sporting events. I do their homework with them, pack their lunches, and I know who their friends are. I am quite fulfilled and they make me feel valuable. Unlike working for a company that can lay me off in a heartbeat because of some takeover or restructuring, this is a long term investment with more loyalty than I know what to do with. :)

So, do I think a woman can balance career and kids? It didn't work for me and I'm glad it didn't. I would have missed so much that I won't ever be able to get back.

Do I think it's right for others to try? Sure. If they really need the self-fulfillment that comes with an important position in the workplace, then their children are probably better off that they work. There might be some resentment toward their kids if they don't. If they are doing it to merely survive on that income, then absolutely. If they are doing it for the ability to live a lifestyle that is way "above average", I don't think they really "need" to work. That, I think, is selfish.

None of this is meant to put down any mother's choice. Every individual has a right to choose how they raise their kids and run their household.

[twizzle]

Working mom, here. Kid's in daycare, loves it. I don't feel guilty because I'm earning money to help support our family, and at the same time, am working on building my career. Because my place of employment is a University, I am not expected to put in insane hours; I leave at 5 pm on the dot every day because if I pick ny child up from daycare late, I'm charged a fee. People at the office -espec my boss - understands this.

All of my coworkers seem to be in awe of me for having a f/t job AND being the mother of a toddler. And, they should be. I feel like fucking Superwoman, most of the time.

Thanks for this post, Tertia. You're Superwoman, too!

[Egg Donor]

I think workplaces should accommodate parents who need to spend time with their kids. I think workplaces should accommodate all kinds of people who have lots of personal issues going on at home (be it children, taking care of a sick parent/spouse, etc)

However, I don't think that should count as work. By that I mean, if you are going home on time, not coming in weekends, and those of us without kids are staying late and working weekends, we should be ahead in line for promotions/benefits at work. People should be allowed to achieve the balance they need, and they should not be expected to work extra hours...but your family time not spent at work shouldn't count the same as the time we non-parents have to put in.

[Pam]

You've mentioned it twice now, sparrow's fart....what is it??? I mean, I think it is the same as "crack of dawn", but just what does that mean?

[Ingrid]

How do the careerists do it? Well, I have to admit I'm not one myself - I jumped onto the independent consultant track after my first. I definitely sacrificed fast forward motion for flexibility. I half regret it, half don't see how I could have done otherwise (but I had a sick kid, so my situation was not typical).

A couple observations:

- it's a hell of a lot easier once they are in school.

- a "sympathetic boss" is great, but it's a lot easier when you are working with others in the same boat, with small children and working spouses. If your peers have SAHs, you are not playing on a level field, no matter how nice people are about it. I know you love these people, Tertia, but I'd keep my eyes open for other opportunities in more family-friendly contexts.

- Some parents I know (moms and dads) work at home when they are not travelling or in meetings. Even if you have a nanny and work a zillion hours, the flexibility a home office offers makes a BIG difference.

- the most successful women (and many successful men) I know often downsize eventually because of burnout, whether or not they have kids. There is a certain pace that many people don't want to sustain. They seem to jump to something prestigious but less demanding. It gets easier the further along you are in your career. So they've put their time in.

It ain't easy, but it's worth it.

[Rivka]

Face it, when dads work full time, they are hard working, great dads, supporting their families; when moms work full time, they are 'part time' moms who are looked upon with disdain. The real question is, can ANY parent be a good parent if they are working over forty hours a week, mom OR dad? The answer, of course, is--it depends. There are moms who are able to change their hours to spend more time with their kids, who make sure to leave the stress at the office, etc. Unfortunately, there are also the moms who seem to use their jobs as an excuse to spend as little time with their kids as possible. I think those are the moms who get the most attention, not the moms who are actually making it work.

[Callie]

If men can be career-focused and be good dads, why can't women be career-focused and be good moms? Why is it that society's definition of "good mom" seems to entail so many more hours of time spent with the kids than society's definition of "good dad"?

I believe it is possible to be a career-focused woman who is also a great mom, if you have a partner who works with you to make that happen. It also helps to have a job that provides flexibility (not in how much work you get done, but when and where you do it).

I know some families where the mom is the primary breadwinner and the dad is the primary caretaker. Also, two-career couples with flexible schedules or couples in business for themselves.

However, I don't think it is possible for everyone, no matter what their gender. Not all careers allow for the kind of flexibility needed to be a good, hands-on parent.

I think it's really unfair that women usually are the ones who have to make the choice between focusing on their careers versus focusing on their families. I think it is beginning to change, but there is still a long way to go.

[JennyK]

I think it's possible to strike a good balance if and only if you have A) a supportive spouse and B) a supportive boss. I'm very lucky to have both. I'm able to work part-time AND still be at home with my little ones enough so that I feel like I get to do the real Mommy stuff, too. I can't imagine having to choose completely one life (SAHM) or the other (working FT). Thankfully, I don't have to. I know I'm very very lucky to be in this situation. My career isn't suffering, either. I didn't get promoted this year, but it wasn't because of my part-time status. My boss even supported me for a pay raise (since the promo didn't come through!).

[Jenn in AK]

Laurie, let's define "job" and "career." A job gets the bills paid and you leave at such and such a time each day, blah blah. A career - you stay late, do whatever your boss asks because it might get you a promotion, etc. A job is one thing - you do it because you have to and don't care if you're ever at the top of the food chain. A career...well, a career is not that flexible. If you're working to get to the next level, family is going to suffer. Period.

I think it's a cruel joke society played on women in the 80s and 90s - "you can have it all! Before and after care for your kids is fine!" Yeah, it's fine, when you're there to kiss them goodnight and tuck them in.

As for Tertia, she leaves at a certain time and does not volunteer to do extra all the time or go to all the functions, etc. She goes home to her babes who need her and want her attention.

I will agree that for some people, having a job makes them a better parent. Personally, having things on my business schedule a couple evenings a week is great! I get a couple hours doing something I love, DH is with Bekah and I get a bit of a break. :-) I understand that completely!

Jenn

[L.]

I`m am (was?) a financial journalist. I`ve been on both sides of the fence, including the middle -- I was mostly a SAHM, doing just a bit of freelancing, while the older two were small, then went back to work fulltime and stayed that way even after the third came along. Now I`m a SAHM again, after quitting to follow my husband`s job transfer. Well-meaning friends keep saying to me, "I`ll bet it feels so good not to be working!" Actually.... no, I love my kids but I really hate being at home all the time. I miss my job, and I plan to go back if I can, once we`re all settled into this new life in our new city.

A counselor at my son`s (former) private school accused me of "outsourcing the raising of my children," because I was a WOHM with a fulltime nanny. Instead of getting pissed off by her comments, which were obviously intended to provoke me -- I smiled and agreed with her. My own mother was a working mom, which was only possible in those days because her mother was there to take care of us after school (and after my mother got home, my grandmother worked nights). So what did I do? I hired a nanny who resembled my late grandmother. She was far more than a nanny --- she was truly an auxliary family member. She wasn`t "raising" my kids, but she was certainly helping, and I was grateful for her insight and support.

Three observations:

1) Generally speaking, having a baby is a great career move for a man and a shitty one for a woman. A man looks more respectable and is taken more seriously if he is a family`s breadwinner -- a woman gives birth to a career distraction.

2) Plenty of the biggest finger-pointers among the SAHMs I`ve known neglected their kids more than some of the WOHMs I`ve known. Why is it okay to leave your kid with a nanny while you play tennis or chair the hospital fundraising committee, but not okay to do it while you W-O-R-K?

3) I think it IS possible to have a career AND be a good mom, if you juggle everything right. I`ve seen moms who have done it, and I did my best to emulate them. But even if your kids don`t lose out on anything, even if they grow up happy, confident and loved.....YOU will lose out on something. Maybe they will do just fine without you there all the time, but when the babysitter sees the baby`s first steps instead of you, the empty feeling in the pit of your stomach gets a little bigger. It can be done, but it`s a tradeoff -- and if you do it right, the burden will fall entirely on you, not on your kids.

[ellen]

I truly don't believe that you can do both things equally well. Can you work and be a great mom? You bet. You're doing it, from what I can tell. But I dont' think you can climb the corporate ladder, up and up and up, travelling and socializing and working early and late, and be a fully present mom. And that is great if you have either a partner that can pick up the slack, or enough help to get it done for you. I know plenty of moms of all stripes, from women with doctorates to home schooling moms, and the fact is you can do it all, but you cannot do it all at once. SOmething has got to give. All the things needed to be good at one or the other are too hard and too time consuming to give it all your equal attention. No right or wrong here...I fully believe that people should do what makes them happy. But the perfect example is my best friend, who is an officer at a very large, very well known company, and chose that over kids. She isn't having them. She says if she had kids she would want to devote as much attention to that job as she has devoted to the job she has...but she can't do both. She has to be great at whatever she does. Working 12 hours a day and commuting another 2-3, she would never see her kids. And that isn't good enough for her. Her choice.

[Mete]

First of all, I will admit that working keeps me relatively sane. Getting out of the house, being with other adults for a few hours a day GOOD for me. Slam me, call me a bad mom. But I'd be a worse mom if I didn't admit the truth.

Of course, MY perfect world would be me working a FEW hours a week, not the full 40. Unfortunately, my husband is a high school graduate, not the college type. He works a manual labor job, and is smart and skilled, but we know he will never make a lot of money. When I say we both have to work to pay the bills, it is not an exaggeration. It is not for an "above average" lifestyle. His salary could pay a typical rent in our area. And I don't know about where you live, but we'd like to have not just a place to live, but electricity. Heat. Food.

I chose the B answer - mainly because my job suffers because of my working. I have the BEST boss, and work in a super flexible company. With a special needs son and an 18 month old, I've got my hands full outside the office. And my coworkers know that my kids are much more important to me than my job. If they are fed, warm, happy and safe, then work is my full focus. But whenever anything comes up, I'm out of there before I can even turn my computer off. And they are great about it. But don't think that when big bonuses and promotions come around, they are going to give them to the mom who is always leaving early for doctor's appointments over the man at the next desk, or the woman with no kids who only has pictures of her dog on her desk.

I know my kids are happy and healthy. This is the only life they know. They see Mommy and Daddy in the afternoons, we go for walks, and read and play, and have bathtime and then they go to bed. On the weekends, they have my full attention. (Sometimes, I even think they get sick of ME and want to go visit grandma or auntie for a while.)

[ProudMary]

I think you're living proof that it's possible to be successful at it. Many many women are. What I don't think is possible is getting rid of the icky feeling that you're not doing either thing 100%. It's such a difficult line to toe and not loathe the feeling of.

As far as getting ahead in the workplace, you won't be in the "long hours" club anymore, but I always found most of that was spent chatting anyway. Don't rely on extra hours to "wow em." Be smart, be engaged and make the most of the hours that you're there.

[Kathy]

YES!

I think you CAN be fantastic mom and have a thriving career. However, there are some qualifiers. ONE: Do you have a supportive spouse? TWO: Is your boss understanding? THREE: Does your job allow for some flexibility?

I think if you have ALL of these qualifiers, it can be done.

I, for one, am a BETTER mom because of my career. I am a high school English teacher and when my twins were born, my principal facilitated me working an 80% contract. (This allows me to keep my benefits.) I teach 0 hour (I get to work at about 6:30 AM) and I teach 4 classes, instead of 5. I get to pick up my boys by 11:00 or 11:30 on most days. We go play, have lunch, they nap in their own cribs, I take care of the house while they're down... it works for us.

Working helps me be a better time manager. My day is planned; my time is organized. I don't do well with those tasks when my day is entirely mine. So, I utilize the time I have.

It helps that I love my job. The students are lively, engaging, and challenging. I love that they prompt discussions I would never have with DH. They make me laugh, and I have a fun group of co-workers.

That being said, this works FOR US. My v best friend is a SAHM and she is great at it. She loves the fleixibility in her days and the abundance of time with her children. I do not begrudge her for staying at home and she certainly has no qualms with me working. I firmly believe that every family has to choose what works for them.

T, don't feel guilty for doing what works for you. Seriously, K&A look like very contented babes (and they are amazingly G&D!) who do not long for affection. You are a fantastic role model for them. They are lucky to have you.

XOXO
Kathy

[Jennifer]

Yes, of course you can be a good mother and have a serious career. The thing that always infuriates me about this question, is that no-one asks it about fathers. And some fathers, IMHO, are bad fathers for having worked the ridiculous hours.

I am in the luxurious position of having my husband as the SAHD (so our children have a stay at home parent, just not me) and I am a serious career woman. But I still leave work at 5 at least 2-3 days a week to make sure I come home and have dinner with the family, and then work from home after the kids have gone to bed.

I think that the best thing that women in our position can do is make it clear to everyone around them that you don't have to spend your life at work to be a highly valuable employee/manager. That will make it easier for the parents (mothers and fathers) who come after us to be good parents AND highly valuable employees.

[Rachel]

Personally, I feel that there is a difference between "having a job" and "having a career." I feel that career's demand sacrifices -- ideally they come first. I further think that kids need someone in their lives whose "career" is taking care of them. It's not possible to have two careers at once (because when push comes to shove, one of the two will be sacrificed for the other -- the one that got sacrificed is the one that is just a job).

I don't really care which parent has the "parenting career," and I understand that sometimes both parents have to work in order to make ends meet. I suppose both parents could have careers and they could hire out the parenting ... but that sort of misses the point of having kids in the first place.

In most families I know, the dad has the career, the mom has a job, and the mom also has the parenting career.

[wix]

i don't think it is possible to achieve true balance when you're a professional and a mom at the same time. i just don't, period, the end, nobody is going to convince me that true balance -is- possible. someone is getting shortchanged. that's not to say that one should give up striving for it, because some days i come really, really close...but it's never an all-the-time or even most-of-the-time thing.

the thing is, i think you have to be up front about your limitations, i.e., i can't stay late, i can't travel, or whatever. if you can work for a person who is a parent, i think that helps, because they know what it's like. and not just a mom--my current boss, whom i really, really like, is a man, and he has two almost-grown sons with his former wife, and is talking about having more children with his fiancee. he loves kids, and whenever i can i hit him up for parenting tips since he's so experienced and has great advice. i got lucky in this instance, i could easily have been hired by someone who hated kids and neither understood nor wanted to try to understand the demands of parenting.

and for the record, i'm the professional in the house; my husband has gone back to school for his bachelor's degree, so he is a student and stay-at-home dad. he is a tremendous help with CX, obviously, and helps with the household chores, too. some days or weeks one of us is doing more than the other, but it all evens out in the end.

[Robin (from TLOL)]

I don't have much time to organize my thoughts because I'm a WAH mom and have a to-do list a mile long waiting for me on my other (work) computer, but I wanted to chime in just to add that no, I don't feel you can do justice to both motherhood and a career without something going by the wayside. Ideally, you can hope for balance, you try not to shortchange your kids, you try not to shortchange your boss, you probably DO shortchange your husband... (or is that just in my house?)

I too was raised on this 1970's superwoman myth ("Free to be You and Me" anyone?) and ended up with a HUGE degree of resentment when I grew up and realized that it's a sham. I was promised that I COULD have it all when of course no one can, not without compromise. That realization alone kept me from even trying to have children for years while I climbed the corporate ladder. When I finally realized that not only did I *have* to compromise, but that I *could*, that's when I realized I was ready to think seriously about motherhood.

I ended up redefining my high power corporate job into a part-time not really on the career track anymore one, and that lasted for a couple of years, post-kid #1 and pre-kid #2. I'd planned to continue this indefintely (even though I was growing progressively more miserable) after kid #2 when I ended up getting downsized just 4 days before I was due to return! Luckily, that was questionable enough legally that they had to do a great job of buying me off, which gave me some space to stay home another 6 months and then rethink things. I ended up taking a real no-brainer WAH job with a different part of the same company. It's easy, no pressure, pays decently if you ignore the no benefits/sick time/vacation time aspects of being basically freelance, and keeps me flexible enough to be there for my kids. At the same time, I went back to school to become a lactation consultant so that later on I can transition out of the yucky corporate job into something that I'm both passionate about and that is super family-friendly (usually, though my 4.5 year old isn't crazy about it when I have evening house calls...) I'm lucky, I was able to find a compromise that works for me. We had to make some sacrifices to make it work, but managed to keep enough of what was important to us (time with kids vs money and reasonable lifestyle for our family) to keep our heads above water. Usually.

I'm lucky though that I have a husband who is also close to an equal partner in the day to day aspects of running a family and a home. It helps too that I live in a culture that not only accepts but practically insists on full-time preschool from a very young age, so no extra dose of guilt there...

[e]

Ok, I've tried both, and I wrote a piece about it about eighteen months ago. The essence of it was that children cannot adequately be brought up in two CAREER household- and I draw here the same distinction you did between job and career. It's a very simple equation- you can't concentrate to the exclusion of all else on both a career and your children.

Most men seem happy to delegate most nitty-gritty child care- preparation of lunchboxes, finding of shoes in the morning, organising of games and swimming kits, etc -ie all the crappy time-consuming things which take up time- to someone else. Most mothers seem to take on that role by default. The fun parts are fun, most of it is logistics.

Unfortunately, the two are so tightly interwoven- ie your child will enagage you in an in-depth philospohical discussion on life, the universe and everything at the precise moment you are buried to your waist in the hall cupboard looking for a football sock. These are the bits you miss when your home life runs around a demanding job.

Most women, however qualified, however focused and driven pre-children, seem to re-adjust their perspective to include their children's wellbeing, and the wellbeing of the family as a whole. Usually, and sadly for us, it means dumping the career and getting a job, with all the attenant consequences in terms of promotion, opportunities.

In short, to have a career, you have to be happy allowing someone else to bring up your child. That is what I think from observing my experiences and those of my (fantastically well-qualified) female friends.

[e]

Oh, and the headmistress of a friend's very ambitious, demanding, driven, girls' high school, used to say: "Yes you CAN have it all, just not all at the same time."

[Melany]

This is what I do. I don't just work to earn a salary. I have my own accounting business. So I'm my own boss. It was SO difficult to leave the corporate world where I was highly admired. Now it's easy. I am the owner of my own time. I'm the one who takes my kids to preschool (mornings only) and pick them up. I take them to their activities...doctors..where ever they need to be. I buckle under the pressure of course. It gets to me every now and again but I do my best. When I'm working, I concentrate on my work and it comes first. When I'm with my kids, I don't think about work. I don't work late but thankfully no-one judges my decision. Being a working mothers is TOUGH. I wish people would stop the fight about who has it worse - working moms or SAHM. What difference does it make! Being a mother a tough.

[eve]

Granted, I did not read through all the comments. Though I don't usually venture into the comments section anymore, I was interested to see what the general consensus would be on the issue.

I was so saddened to see so many "it can't be done - the children or the career will suffer" statements. Just because something won't work in one household, with its particular rhythms and particular needs and resources and whatnot, doesn't mean it won't work in another. I've noticed that a lot who posted that sentiment felt that they had to make a choice. I'm sure they all made the right decisions, and I personally am glad that, as women, we have choices to do what's best for our families. But I simply don't believe that EVERY mother in EVERY family MUST make a choice, or something suffers.

I just feel like, what the heart wants, the heart gets. And I feel like if, in a woman's heart, she wants to be driven career-wise and a great mother, she absolutely 100% can do it. A woman can do anything she sets her mind to do, I feel that wholeheartedly. Will it be easy? Maybe, maybe not. Will she need support from other key players? Well probably, but don't most mothers want or need a support system of some kind?

The comments especially saddened me because I wonder whether any of the commenters who felt "it can't be done" would ever vote for a woman President (or PM or state leader) who had children. Would they feel that she would either be a "bad leader" or a "bad mother" because she couldn't possibly do both well? Just a hypothetical question...

And of course, where in society is the "Can a man be career-driven and a great father?" question. I wonder whether we just assume that it's true, because it's what we've come to know culturally. Or do we assume that "behind every great man is a great woman" and any successful man/father must have a woman/mother who picks up where he lacks? Or do we define "fatherhood" in such a way that it differs from motherhood, so it's a lot easier for that "career-driven man" to do it successfully?

Just a few thoughts as I read... Interesting topic, and I'm sure an interesting discussion to be had. Returning to lurkdom...:)

[EvE]

We are about to decide if/when we will have children. Here is the bit that irks me. I earn the large salary in our marriage. Yet, I must now add more to my plate - while things just go on happily the way they are for him.

We both need to work to meet commitments, but there is no chance of *career or professional progression* for me *EVER AGAIN* with such responsibility piled on top. I just feel that your life choices and freedoms are curbed merely by the fact that you are the one which physically can have the child.

My DH wants children, but he doesn't want much else to change for him - which also means I still need to bring in my large salary, yet, be the perfect mother - still clean, cook, be minister of finances etc etc etc.

I dunno, I am 33 and I am still stalling over children, not because I don't want them, but because I know I will not be able to juggle everything. I will become a wreck.

[Scout]

What you are saying is true, true, true. My female colleagues and I (all attorneys) used to moan over the SAHW/SAHM that the male attorneys had to make their lives easier. But I don't think the solution lies in getting the corporate world to wake up to working mothers.

The solution lies in insisting that men pull their weight if women want to maintain their careers. I am not aiming this at you in particular, it applies in all societies where women want to continue their careers after motherhood. I have a siser-in-law that busts her ass in a high powered financial sector job. She is also the mom of two children. Her husband can't even get the kids off to school by himself when she has to go out of town for work. She has to pack them off to her mother's. It's ridiculous.

Personally, I can't say I am enforcing the "equal weight" route. I have found that I like to work, but I also like to have time to be a homemaker as well. This works for me and for my marriage and I have almost made peace with having the secondary (if any) career.

I think women have to talk to their husbands and be perfectly clear about what they expect during the marriage and when children are involved, including a scenario where two incomes is an absolute necessity. We did this before we were married so it's been no surprise to my husband that when I am working full-time that I am not to be expected to come home and work a second shift cooking and cleaning. We have either hired help or have both been responsible. (It hasn't always been sunshine and daisies but I don't feel quilty when the bathroom's dirty after I've worked a 50 hour week too).

I doubt the corporate world will ever be completely mother friendly. It's up to us to make it work on some level with the men in our lives.

[Scout]

I responded before I read all of the comments and I have to re-comment to say that I am truly dismayed at all the comments about a "supportive spouse," a partner that helps, etc. Good Lord, we are talking about the men that are the FATHERS of these children, aren't we? Why do we allow this situation where we feel responsible for everything to persevere?

This, in particuluar, saddens me: "My DH wants children, but he doesn't want much else to change for him - which also means I still need to bring in my large salary, yet, be the perfect mother - still clean, cook, be minister of finances etc etc etc."

I don't understand where this mindset comes from. Why does he get off the hook for any responsibilities at home while you certainly aren't off the hook for your responsibilities in the workplace that are sustaining your family on the financial level. I don't get it.

[BeenThere]

Prior to having IVF twins I worked like a crazy woman and my compensation reflected it--but it wasn't worth it, even prior to kids. I was constantly on the road, never had a complete evening, weekend, or vacation without some work thrown in. I worked out of my home which made it a little easier--no commuting, throw a load of laundry in while talking on the phone, etc. I made a lot of money but was not happy.

Our twin daughter died at 12 weeks from SIDS.

I returned to work about 20 weeks after the babies and had a wonderful live-in au pair--still worked from home and travelled but less so. My husband also worked from home and we arranged it so that one of us was always there with the babies and au pair. I did enjoy my work but I certainly did less of it and my compensation reflected that.

Our son had a wonderful existence with the love of 3 adults working together. I do not believe he "suffered" because I wasn't with him every second; in fact, I think he flourished.

When our son turned 3 he became accutely aware of when I was and wasn't there and I decided to pack in the corporate job for one five minutes from the house--regular hours, no evenings, weekends, a lot less money.
I've continued in that mode and am planning to find a way to do even less work-wise. He's 8 now and I'm finding that he needs me more as he gets older.

I've adjusted based on the needs of everyone in our family as time as gone on. We've had every combination of schedule and child care, as needed.

I'm glad I worked and have only a little guilt about it. My son is happy, healthy, sane, and loves me to bits. He rolls with the punches and understands and thrives with adjustments.

My husband become completely disabled two years ago so me not working is not an option. I'm glad that I continued to work, even when I didn't have to.

My sister had a baby just before I had the twins and has since had another. She's never worked. She's had stay-at-home dilemas and stress equal to my work-related stuff. She desperately wants to join the workforce now that her kids are both in full-time school. Comparing our lives, our kids, our happiness, etc., I think we'd both say "about the same", we just got there in different ways.

Nothing is going to be "perfect" whether you work or not--you just have to do what is the "rightest" thing for your family, and you, IMO.

[Shevon]

Didn't read all the comments, but in my house the work/home load is split equally between my husband and I. We both work hard and we have someone to help us clean the house, and we spend the rest of the time with the babies.

I would not be happy if my husband spent time at work "socializing". If it's not work, he should be home. Luckily we would both rather be with each other and with our kids than with anyone else.

[Graeme]

When it comes work and kids, I prefer some balance. However, I do bear in mind that my company pays me for certain expected performance in standard working hours. If I work outside those hours more than occasionally, then either I cannot do my work within my working hours (either due to my capabilities or because there's too much work), or I have personal issues that cause me to want to be at work when I don't have to be.

I guess I'll never be a manager - at least, not one of those who spends their lives at work.

[Rosemary Grace]

This is a very interesting point. I think that now most people accept, even if they won't admit it, that a woman can have a job outside the home and still be a great mother. BUT, that's just a job, the question of advancing in your career while still being a good mother is a lot harder.

My boss is a lower level professor, and she works VERY hard, and also has a lot of "quality time" with her son. I think that it works for her because she and her husband have a great system for alternating who picks the kid of from daycare, and this particular job, academic research, has a fairly high level of flexibility. I see her as a real go-getter and wouldn't be surprised to see her work up to being a well respected name in the field. So there's on example of carrer advancement and mommyhood working out OK.

I must admit I'm pretty curious to see how it works out for me. I have an idea I might like to try to be a stay at home mother for a bit, but it might drive me crazy. I'm aware that cooling off on the career path to focus on kids would look like a cop-out to many, but, quite frankly, if it turns out to be right for me then I'm OK with looking "unambitious". I don't see a high powered career AND a happy family as the ultimate goal. Our society does though.

Our society thinks less of a person who says "you know what, I'm happy HERE, I don't need more money or more power, this is good thanks". Our society is also still very male-centric, still based on the idea that women tend to the kids and men go hunt mammoth, or mammoth raises in this case. I think the real problem is that it's made far to difficult for a mother to climb the corporate ladder, because what is required to climb it is working long hours and attenting dinners and weekend golf games. Mothers are forced to choose. Not fair. It would be nice if getting to the top didn't seem to require ignoring every other aspect of life.

I'd really like society as a whole to recognise raising a child for how important it is. After all, society consists of people who were raised by SOMEONE, it would be nice if "being a good parent to happy children" were seen as a worthy ambition.

[Rosemary Grace]

OK, I hadn't read the comments yet when I wrote mine, I have to add that the thing that jumps out at me is how important husband/father contribution is. That poor woman who's husband wants to have kids, but he magically doesn't want his life to change? THAT is a major barrier to mothers' careers. I think that she needs to slap him upside the head with a bit of reality and point out that you aren't a perent if you arent' involved, and that doesn't just mean playing ball with your kid once in a while, it means wiping bums and finding shoes and cleaning up messes.

My husband was raised in a traditional family, where mom worked AND did all the cooking/cleaning child-wrangling, EVEN WHEN DADDY WAS LAID OFF AND HOME ALL DAY. I know he doesn't think it should work that way, but I forsee a little training ahead when babies become part of the picture.

So back to sciety in general: if we somehow manage it to become the "norm" for fathers to be equally involved in parenting, and all the time that entails, then I just bet that not working evenings because you have kids will be less of a problem in the corporate world. That, or nobody with kids, male or female, will ever become a CEO again.

[Malone]

I have thought often about this and women in the workplace in general.

The problem is in the structure of our institutions.

Women entered the male workplace on men's terms. Women have worked hard to prove we could play a man's game as well as a man, instead of changing that world to fit our needs as women and mothers.

The problem is with the structure of the institutions. The institutions (and governments) were created by men and have been run essentially by men. Women have not yet been able to change the structure of these institutions.

I believe the structures of these institutions likely will not change until men in general become as involved in child-rearing as women, which I don't believe I will see in my lifetime.

Personally, I used to be very driven and ambitious. Once I realized I could climb the "corporate ladder" and succeed in a "man's world," I decided I didn't need to anymore. I wasn't married and didn't have my dd yet. I decided finding a job I loved that felt worthwhile was more important to me. I took a huge paycut and found that job.

Now, that job has also fallen by the wayside for part-time work. It's not as much for my dd as it is for me. I just like being with her even more than I liked my great job and I am lucky to be able to be with her more.

[Cheryl]

Well - I'm not in it - BUT I can say that my dh has faced some of this and continues to faces some of these issues - we have 5 children. 5 children in 4 years including a set of twins where the last 2 pregnancies where I was on bedrest and in/out of hospital. During that time he had to drop the other kids at daycare and pick them up after. No working late, no going in early, no going to socialize. It was very hard for him. Even now - our older ones are in activities and so often he does need to come home - so one can stay home with the babies - the other can take Michael to soccer, Melissa to ballet, I have orchestra rehearsal once a week and he HAS To be home to watch the kids. The other guys in the office don't have that kind of family committment - so I see how my dh has to make that choice - which ended up they hired in someone from outside to be the new manager - when he had been hoping for that promotion. It's a hard balance to have a family and try and climb the corporate ladder. I admire those to do manage to do well at both.

[mirabel]

I’m a little late to the discussion, but it’s such a good one. Malone, I agree with you about the structure of our institutions being a problem.

I don’t have any kids yet, but my husband and I do want to have children someday, and the work/motherhood balance is something I have thought about for a long time. I have really enjoyed reading everyone’s comments here, and seeing that different choices are right for different families. I am realizing that while I can’t necessarily “have it all,” I am hopeful that with the right choices (whatever those may be for my family), I can have a fulfilling career and be a good mother. Thanks to those of you who have commented that it is, in fact, possible!

Long time lurker, first time poster. Tertia-thanks for another great discussion. I love your blog and think you and your babies are very G&D.

[Vanessa]

Ok, so if the career men are all going in to work at sparrow's fart, working 14-hour days and attending functions until the crack of dawn (like we used to do in our pre-mom days) when do they get to see their wives and kids? I felt completely devasted when I realised I'd missed the first crawl (backwards, incidentally). Work is robbing me of seeing my baby grow. Do men not feel that sense of loss? Or is it just so accepted that men work and aren't around to witness these amazing moments, that they haven't stopped to think/feel about it? Or is it a mom-thing; being bound by the overwhelming primordial desire to nurture and BE THERE constantly? I frequently find myself a breath away from resignation, with the only thing holding my mouth shut being the thought of sitting on a street corner with my daughter begging for money.

[Diane]

Tertia, you have hit upon a subject dear to my heart. I am a lawyer by profession, with two kids, 7 and 10. Returning to work after my first child, I quickly realized that work in the large corporate firm environment would not allow me to see my child.

I left, and began my own firm. I work regular hours for the most part (some nights, some weekends, but not like I used to), and I see my children. My husband is very involved, which I think is critical to our family's ability to cope.

It is a struggle, no question, to find the balance, and there are many days when I feel I am stretched too thin. Would I give up one or the other if I had the choice (and I don't have the choice to stay at home as I am the primary breadwinner)- I would not.

Your description of your life sounds much like my own. There are compromises to be made. And yes, as my children get older, I can take on more challenges, as an evening away from them is more manageable. In a few years, they can stay alone for a few hours if need be.

The comment above, which I have heard before, 'you can have it all, just not all at once', I think sums it up.

[Cheryl]

My mother (who worked in an office from the time the youngest was 3) always told me that it is fairly easy to have a job and a family. A job, where you go 9-5 do your job and leave at the end of the day and not have to think about it anymore. It is much more difficult to have a career and a family. When I was a kid I didn't get it, but now that I am a working woman, I do. I've had both jobs and a career. A job is much less taxing in that they don't require much outside of showing up, doing work and leaving at the end of the day. Careers are much more difficult to do with kids.

I have friends who are in all camps regarding this. A SAHM with 3 kids, a PT working mother with 2, a VP of a multi-national company with no kids and a business owner with 2. I remember once at a birthday lunch for one of us that when it came right down to it, none of us was 100% happy with the choice we had made. We all seemed to think another one of us had it "better" or had "more". I think that it is the fallout of the womens movement our mothers fought for. Choice is just that, choice. Not perfection.

[Amy]

Among my friends just about all of our mothers had jobs and some had very successful, important careers. Of my closest friends one has a mom who is the now the head of development at a university, one had a mom who was a very successful economist, my mom was a computer engineer. A few others had mothers with more flexible jobs like teaching or running home businesses but I can only think of a handful that had mothers who didn't work outside the home at all. The career moms for the most part cut back on hours and in some cases even stopped work completely when we were very young (many used that time to complete graduate degrees and other schooling) and went back full force when we started school full time. Maybe it is becuase of that that I always expected not just to work but to build a career even after having kids.

I left a career that was not at all conducive to having a family to pursue something a bit more mellow. It is not as lucrative but it is more flexible and family friendly. So my plan is to start trying for kids soon before moving up too much at my job so I can have time to focus on them when they are little before my responsibilities at work get too much. (trying is the key word. I know that it may not work out the way I plan) Then when they are in school full time I will begin working a few longer days and putting in some travel time so I can start moving up the food chain a bit. By the time they are in college I hope to have a successful career and a comfortable lifestyle. And just maybe I can retire in time, like my mom did, to have loads of time to travel and enjoy my grandchildren. There will be lots of compramises made along the way but I will do the best I can and hope it all works out okay. No, I will probably not have the career with kids that I would have had without them and I am okay with that. And I will probably not be as involved with every aspect of my kids lives as I would if I was home full time and I am okay with that too. Or maybe it will all go to shit and I will have to change up my plans. I am okay with that too. I consider myself very blessed and lucky to be living in a time and place when my life as a woman is full of choices.

I think one thing that is key if you are a working mom and especially if you are a career oriented mom is to make friends with other moms in the same situation. If all of your friends are staying at home with kids while you are working full time and trying to find that balance it will be much harder for you always comparing your life to theirs. As one of my best friends always says...the grass may look greener over there but when when you get up close you may find out it's astroturf. No matter what path you take there will be problems, compramises and regrets. We all just do the best we can.

[Kara]

I'm a working mom, and the breadwinner of the family. My husband works part-time and stays home with our son two days a week, and he's (my son, that is) in daycare the other three days.

I believe the problem is not the working moms. The problem is our workaholic culture. If we can set financial necessities aside for a moment (I'm not downplaying them, they are important), having working moms and dads in the workface is a benefit. We (as a society) underestimate and undervalue the skillsets of working moms and dads. The skills learned in childrearing are valuable in the workface, and it is a shame to push working parents off the corporate ladder, when these are valuable employees.

So, employers and corporate culture need to change. I'm in academics, and I think some of the changes there would be helpful: generous maternity and paternity leaves (like one semester off from teaching duties), stopping the tenure clock, and lots of flex-time. I bring my son into work with me for a few hours when his father has an appointment, and he is welcomed with opened arms as fars as I can tell--the administrator assistants won't put him down!

Corporate culture won't change until employees insist on nothing but the best for themselves...which includes having a family.

[Jaime]

The corporate ladder will always be there. Your children will not.

Yes, you can be a great mother and have a career. No question. However, when it comes to climbing the corporate ladder and all that it requires, you have to ask yourself what your expectations are.

Sure, those five guys are climbing. But what have they sacrificed? It doesn't matter whether their wives stay home or not. What have they personally sacrificed?

For every late night at the bar, for every client dinner, for every business trip- they have sacrificed a soccer game, a school meeting, and time with their family. That's quite a price to pay for the time they are putting in.

I know that as a SAHM (I was not always) I cannot expect to have the same luxeries I had with a second/higher income. It wouldn't be fair.

As a working mother,I knew I couldn't climb as high on the ladder as my co-workers because I chose not to invest the same amount of time into my work as they did. Thus, I did not expect the same rewards. It wouldn't be fair to them.

I think that the gauge should be whether your children and family are happy with what's going on. If they are, then it's no one's business what you do with your life! If they're not, then try to find alternative ways of dealing with the situation.

We're all in the same boat, SAHM's, Working Mammas, Dad's. Just trying to do the best we can with what we have!

[Hazel]

I have a good well paying job with a senior position that I worked hard for before I had kids. I still work hard while I’m at work but I don’t do overtime anymore, I don’t work weekend anymore. I take time off for whatever comes up with the kids. Therefor, I am not the same employee anymore. I’m not really that employee anymore that was hired for that position. What I am saying is that in my case my career is suffering, not that I care in the slightest but I would guess that my employer cares that I don’t contribute like I used to. I still work very hard when I’m at work, I just don’t work as many hours. Basically I think something has to give and for me it’s the job.

Here’s a question Tertia. I’m not trying to belittle anyone or the decisions anyone makes, this is just a question. I hear a lot of people saying they are willing to sacrifice the nice things, the holidays, the camp the this, the that, so the baby / children always see them when they wake up etc. etc. I wonder is that what the child would want given the choice or is it more what the parent wants? I suppose I can ask that because I don’t equate being a SAHM with being a better or a more loving mom.

[Kay]

I guess I'm a career gal....but one who takes time off when the kiddo is sick. My (male) boss just adopted his 2nd child from China. He took off 3 weeks and he is a Vice President. I work for a fortune 500 company - but I guess I landed in the right department, because in the year and 1/2 I've been there I got 2 bonuses and a raise - even though I'm pregnant and have been sick alot. I don't work more than 40-ish hours a week. We work 4 1/2 day weeks normally - by company design. I can bring work home if I need to. I have travelled, but I don't have to be gone more than Monday - Friday. They give me flexibility in planning my work.

I work because I like it. I'm smart and I need to use my brain. I need to be around other adults. I also want more than just "basic neccessities" for me, my husband, and my kids. I want to be able to pay for college - an Ivy League one if they want. We're not really "wealthy", but we don't nickel and dime every decision we make.

My child has manners. Most people think he is much older than 3 when he speaks. I think that daycare helps with his social skills. Also the fact that we bring him 90% of the places we go. We will get babysitters (our parents) on the weekends so we can go to football games, but most weekends - it's the 3 of us (soon to be 4 of us). He's been to my office with me. He told me today that he liked going there.

So, while I'm not at the office at 6am and staying until 9pm, I am well-respected. I am well-compensated. I am considered valuable. I think it's because I'm pretty no-nonsense and a "get the job done" kind of person. I make time to socialize every now and then - but most of the time I opt out. This is not held against me. So, yes, I'm able to be a career-woman and a mother. I'm pretty good at both. Do I want to be the CEO? No way. But just because you're not trying to get to the TOP of the ladder doesn't mean you're not on it.

Teaching is a career - but you'd be hard pressed to say there is much ladder-climbing involved. At least in my state, you don't get paid more no matter how many hours you put in. I think that the difference between a job and a career has more to do with the attitude of the employee than the number of hours required.

JMO. YMMV.

[christie]

Single mom with a 16 month old son. I'm a physician assistant so I have a fairly stable job with regular hours. I drop him off at daycare (a daycare I absolutely adore and he claps when we pull in the driveway - which REALLY helps my sanity) at about 8:30 and pick him up at 5:30 ish...So, I get 1 1/2 hours in the morning with him, plus 2 1/2 hours in the evening with him. And that has to include cooking, cleaning, bathing, etc...I cherish my time with him, we have an absolute ball in the evenings running around like lunatics playing. I miss him during the day but I know he's having fun so it's okay, I wish I had more time with him but he's happy so I don't beat myself up over it (yeah, I did so a bit at first but hell, the kid LOVES his buddies at daycare).

This is not the path I thought I'd chosen. I was married and supposed to be able to work part-time for the first couple years of his life...and then I found out about the lying, cheating, law breaking stuff...and here were are. He is a happy, loveable, well developed, silly little boy, and he loves his mommy a WHOLE bunch....

What else could I ask for?

If he grows up and turns into an axe murderer I guess I'll decide I didn't do so well but right now I think we're doing pretty darn good.

So yes, career and kids can be done...but it ain't easy lady!

[Samuel]

I'm a father of 4 and a husband to a woman who does stay at home. I currently have my own business, in which I work from home. I'm able to pay all of the bills but there is not much left over for a lot of luxeries.

Basically after reading all of these posts I felt urged to respond by saying we are dealing with the results not the cause. Why do any of us work in the first place? It shouldn't be to feel good about our selves, you don't need a job for that. Work should not be your link to the adult world there are many things one can do to be around adults.

I work simply because I need the money to have a house, car, food, insurance, cloths, etc... That's it. I can think of over fifty things I would rather do than work from 9-5pm and I work from home. I love playing with my kids, teaching my son karate, teaching my son how to become a man, and teaching my 3 daughters how to be a lovely women wihtout adopting the feminist ideologies. I would be spending time with my wife, creating memories, writing, poetry, music, dancing, camping, and many other things...
I strongly believe that both men and women work for the wrong reasons, and many of them actually think a career is something admirable. A career in my eyes is nothing more than a job in the same field, just with a rising salary. Most of these jobs and careers do nothing more than help greedy rich people get richer. There are only a handful of noble jobs out here.

I’m a computer programmer and most of what I build to me is vain, no substance whatsoever. Although I’m good at what I do. Most of my skills are used for vanity.

So I don’t even understand why woman or men for that matter is so caught up with chasing careers. Corporate America does not care about you nor me, they care about their bottom line. Yet we are so loyal to them. At the end of the day fathers and mothers, are doing a tremendous dis-service to their children.

There were many times my wife could have went back to work. But why. Yes we need money but not that bad. So what if she cannot get that 8th pair of shoes. So what if I cannot purchase that new SUV that just came out. Many of us are a slave to our own desires, and it’s sad that our children is not one of our highest desires, besides God.